An honest question here - 8X10 & 2X15 paired

[nysbob]

I've been using different driver sizes and cabs about forever, but always with a dedicated head for any particular driver...to allow for EQ tweaking. I used to think of it as a biamp rig because one component carries the low end and the other is focused on attack or "presence"...but I have been schooled here that since there is no crossover, it's just a stereo rig.

IMO part of being a thinking musician is arriving at something that does exactly what you want it too. If there was a blueprint for it and we all had the same tastes, we'd likely all be wearing uniforms and issued exactly the same gear....

Thankfully that is not the case.

We've come a long way with design and modeling software and the like. If that's the alter you want to worship at, so be it. If you want to experiment and play around with different things, I believe that's still legal too...

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by Jim Nazium

Smart man! That drummer is something - any clips of you playing with him?

I am his engineer not his bass player, as I am near geriatric these days
I restrict myself to the studio end of the business.:bassist

[azureblue]

a pair of the 2-15's cabs is heaven. I had that rig way back -you could knock over a horse with it..

[Downunderwonder]

Originally Posted by Bassmec

There is nothing wrong with looking at all the available science in any subject, you just need to find which bits are relevant to your improving results, there are very real concerns with phase in bass gear and monitoring and front of house, but to be dogmatically resistant to having
loudspeakers of slightly different diameters but fairly similar frequency responses, seems odd when we are not so concerned about adding an inductive passive crossover to a bass loudspeaker in the presence of usually active monitor loudspeaker designs that don't have this phase anomaly but are normally suffering from small digital latencies these days.
I spend a lot of my time putting things in phase with expensive little labs phase tools and time alignment with micro delays in digital system controllers and analysing the results with waves software, but I don't concern my self with the very small questions, I am much more worried about getting the general phase alignment of stuff in phase from my mix position, so I can mix it as well as possible for as much of the audience as possible.
Far too many reflected phase angles at a gig in a real hall to be concerned with some very small theoretical discrepancy between two cabinets at the same point source.

8x10 by itself is pretty darn far from a point source just by itself. Add the 2x15 and you take another leap backwards. I couldn't care less what the room is doing. The rig isn't getting any PA support.

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

8x10 by itself is pretty darn far from a point source just by itself. Add the 2x15 and you take another leap backwards. I couldn't care less what the room is doing. The rig isn't getting any PA support.

I don't think we run quite the same sort of gigs, we usually spec three or four SVT rigs on the rider for big outdoor gigs.
As a bass player you know you can do a good bit of strutting back and fourth in front of four Ampeg rigs without being very far off axis as long as I line up the wave front with the subs under the stage and the low frequencies of the arrays and the side fills in the wings.

[godofthunder59]

Originally Posted by Bassmec

There is far more than one way to get this job done, and some of the old
school methods are still very effective.

Yes we have to be aware of comb filtering and other technical aspects of waves combining in air, but the result is, we always find ourselves suffering from acoustic problems in venues that don't chose to care exactly how in phase your drivers response may be at point source.

They just like to pick up and hoot and boom low midrange bass frequencies and cancel others without regard to the levels at various frequencies originally generated by the bass rig, whatever it is.
This all smacks of music technology lecturers educating people on how theoretically you do something without having first gained any first hand experience in this trade, but in order to qualify to perpetrate this vast fraud have gained a degree in pure physics.
I would argue that engineering gigs all over the world at every scale since 1972 gives me the advantage of being involved in something music technology lecturers don't know about, called applied physics.

The rulz are there are no rulz, other than what works really well in practice like this proud unscientific beast:

I couldn't agree more!

[Downunderwonder]

Originally Posted by Bassmec

I don't think we run quite the same sort of gigs, we usually spec three or four SVT rigs on the rider for big outdoor gigs.
As a bass player you know you can do a good bit of strutting back and fourth in front of four Ampeg rigs without being very far off axis as long as I line up the wave front with the subs under the stage and the low frequencies of the arrays and the side fills in the wings.

Yeah, I do know these things, but you deride my comments as if the big gig paradigm was applicable everywhere.

[Downunderwonder]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

Opinion doesn't change the reasons you might not like a wall of muddy mids coming from 2x15 and 8x10 side by side merging 2 rows back.

This is what needs to be accepted by those playing without PA.

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

Yeah, I do know these things, but you deride my comments as if the big gig paradigm was applicable everywhere.

I don't deride your comments, I have found almost everything you have said to be very well thought out and informed.
I have done loads of small gigs and know exactly how you feel, getting an intractable arrogant bass player with a huge stage rig in a small club
can be hugely frustrating, but the size of the rig or exact makeup of the cabinets does not define the volume it's played at nor the care with which its been EQ'd for the room.
I like to use withering sarcasm as a bass frequency editing tool, if I find someone with a predominantly too loud boomy muddy sound on stage.

[Downunderwonder]

He can't eq mush quiet or loud.

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

He can't eq mush quiet or loud.

What I am totally at odds with is the automatic assumption that two loudspeakers of different diameters will create mush.
It's an assumption too far, I am certain that there are pairings that have horrible results, but take for instance a very bright forward midrange 15" driver paired with modern low frequency extended high powered ten inch.
The pure physics demand that the reciprocating weight of the cone structures are going to be fairly similar if they both end up with about the same high frequency roll off and therefore phase twist performance.
If you reverse this and try to pair a low frequency enhanced 15" speaker with a light agile 10" your phase twist disparities start to become quite noticeable so it's advisable to think about designing a crossover in order that these overlaps are as small as possible.
If you extend what you are purporting to microphones picking up the same loudspeaker, it's fairly common to use two microphones or more of completely different designs in studios to record loudspeakers, these are going to exhibit differing phase twists within their design take for instance a Royer r121 ribbon paired with a sm 57 dynamic we move one back and forth till we find what we are looking for phase interaction.
So is that against your audio rule book too. what if you have loudspeakers with the same diameter with different manufacturers and cabinets, Is that also outside the rule book.
Because if all that is wrong too, you have been listening to a hell of a lot of wrong thats somehow got regularly nominated for a Grammy.

[dhsierra1]

Originally Posted by azureblue

a pair of the 2-15's cabs is heaven. I had that rig way back -you could knock over a horse with it..

Can't argue with that, did that back in the early 80s using EVM-15Ls cross-fired for outdoor gigs

Now it's 3-15s in a stack for those situations.

[eddododo]

As an orchestral/windband player, both on d.bass and tuba/trombone/french horn, I always roll my eyes a little when people talk about phasing/ comb problems when mixing cabs. I get the science behind it, but its typically a much more subtle effect than people act

[Downunderwonder]

Bassmec, your average heavy to beyond heavy metal band with a big bass rig is reading that and going 'huh?'. I have a vague idea of what you're up to but you could show me your rack and I'd struggle to ID the relevant processors. Again, I'm not concerned with mega stages.

Mush was the wrong word but unintelligible bass can't solely be blamed on the guitars being too loud or a poor onstage mix when the bass rig is 4 to 5 ft wide and mismatched to boot.

[jungleheat]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

When I started applying rules my sound got out of sight better. If you don't know the rules how can you even attempt to follow them? Sound isn't intuitive.

"The rules" can be a great guide, and especially useful if you're otherwise unsure of how to proceed (like most of the lost lot here on TB who need help tying their own shoes), or if you are trying to get a very specific sound that is a little more esoteric. But musicians throughout history have always made their own unconventional gear choices and thus revolutionized music as a whole. Look at Jimi Hendrix. He didn't give a damn about the "right" way to play guitar (no pun intended). He was concerned with the HENDRIX way of playing, and because he dared to go out into the cold dark night alone, with only his creative genius as a torch, he managed to inspire the whole world and change music forever.

I like to give people the benefit of the doubt off the bat, that they are competent enough to figure out if something sounds good or not for their own purposes. So by all means, if someone is looking for a complete rig from scratch (or even starting from a few pieces already in their possession), go ahead and point out the concerns involved with various types of setups. But don't make it as if potential phase issues between different sized drivers is the absolute primary aspect to focus on when building a rig, because quite honestly, it is pretty insignificant compared to the overall tone, sensitivity, power handling, price, size/weight, etc...

Originally Posted by Bassmec

Far too many reflected phase angles at a gig in a real hall to be concerned with some very small theoretical discrepancy between two cabinets at the same point source.

Totally. As soon as you have anything besides a single speaker in an infinite space, you're going to be dealing with reflections, phase problems, etc... But here's the thing no one ever seems to realize. THAT IS HOW YOUR EAR HAS EVOLVED TO PROCESS SOUNDS. With an open back guitar cab, you are probably getting all kinds of phasing problems, and yet, the sound is this big, glorious, magnificent thing that is much more open than a closed cab PRECISELY in part because of some of these phase interactions.

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

This is what needs to be accepted by those playing without PA.

Nobody is playing with that much firepower without a PA. And if they are, they have a whole set of other issues to worry about. For one, at that kind of volume, your acoustic drums completely turn into a bunch of noisy crashing and swishing, and as your drummer tries to compensate by hitting harder, he'll eventually tired himself out and start getting sloppy.

Besides that, at a gig without a PA, all the instruments are going to be coming from different locations within the venue, meaning the sound is probably going to be quite different for each person in the audience ANYWAY. So what's the point of trying to get all the phase issues sorted out when it's an impossible task to begin with?

So as I said, if it sounds good, it is good. Don't get too wrapped up in the science telling you it's wrong if the vibe is happening in the room.

[jungleheat]

And sound is TOTALLY intuitive. If something is too trebly, turn down the treble. If it's too bassy, turn down the bass. If it's not loud enough, get more speakers and more watts. Contrary to the rewritten history around here lately, bigger speakers will probably have more low end, and small speakers will probably have more high end (you don't see too many 15" tweeters in cabs, do you?).

All else being equal, a bigger cabinet with more/bigger speakers will be louder than a small one with smaller/fewer speakers. More watts will get you louder if your speakers can handle it.

I mean, there really isn't much of anything about sound that ISN'T intuitive, at least that's been my experience. Then again I grew with musical genes and in an environment filled with lots of different kinds of music, great sounding stereo equipment, and access to instruments to play, so maybe it's not as simple for most people.

[5StringThunder]

So, I've been reading all these responses about how it's bet to match cabs. If that's the case, then why is the 410 and 115 combination so popular?

[jungleheat]

Actually, I will say that combination is not really ideal. At least with modern speakers. a 4x10 will typically handle a lot more power than 15, so you're kind of limited to twice what the 15 can do. Which isn't a big problem really, especially with a capable 15 and if you know what you are doing and are careful with volumes levels. A 2x10/1x15 though, especially from the same series, will be pretty well matched up, so you can push them a bit more confidently, and still get the typically bigger sound you will get from different sized drivers.

Although if you have a 4 ohm 4x10 and an 8 ohm 15, that could work pretty well, as then watt wise it's more like 3 (2 2x10s and the 15) roughly equivalent cabs working together.

[Downunderwonder]

Originally Posted by jungleheat

"The rules" can be a great guide, and especially useful if you're otherwise unsure of how to proceed (like most of the lost lot here on TB who need help tying their own shoes), or if you are trying to get a very specific sound that is a little more esoteric. But musicians throughout history have always made their own unconventional gear choices and thus revolutionized music as a whole. Look at Jimi Hendrix. He didn't give a damn about the "right" way to play guitar (no pun intended). He was concerned with the HENDRIX way of playing, and because he dared to go out into the cold dark night alone, with only his creative genius as a torch, he managed to inspire the whole world and change music forever.

I like to give people the benefit of the doubt off the bat, that they are competent enough to figure out if something sounds good or not for their own purposes. So by all means, if someone is looking for a complete rig from scratch (or even starting from a few pieces already in their possession), go ahead and point out the concerns involved with various types of setups. But don't make it as if potential phase issues between different sized drivers is the absolute primary aspect to focus on when building a rig, because quite honestly, it is pretty insignificant compared to the overall tone, sensitivity, power handling, price, size/weight, etc...



Totally. As soon as you have anything besides a single speaker in an infinite space, you're going to be dealing with reflections, phase problems, etc... But here's the thing no one ever seems to realize. THAT IS HOW YOUR EAR HAS EVOLVED TO PROCESS SOUNDS. With an open back guitar cab, you are probably getting all kinds of phasing problems, and yet, the sound is this big, glorious, magnificent thing that is much more open than a closed cab PRECISELY in part because of some of these phase interactions.



Nobody is playing with that much firepower without a PA. And if they are, they have a whole set of other issues to worry about. For one, at that kind of volume, your acoustic drums completely turn into a bunch of noisy crashing and swishing, and as your drummer tries to compensate by hitting harder, he'll eventually tired himself out and start getting sloppy.

Besides that, at a gig without a PA, all the instruments are going to be coming from different locations within the venue, meaning the sound is probably going to be quite different for each person in the audience ANYWAY. So what's the point of trying to get all the phase issues sorted out when it's an impossible task to begin with?

So as I said, if it sounds good, it is good. Don't get too wrapped up in the science telling you it's wrong if the vibe is happening in the room.

Bass not in the PA doesn't mean drums aren't. You wanna invent a new sound, go hard. You wanna get that sound out to a wider audience, pay attention to the rules.

The direct sound from your rig is by far the loudest sound and the first to hit your ears. Sure, the brain deals with the reverb of the room being out of phase just fine. No reason to confuse with unintentional speaker interactions.

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Originally Posted by Bassmec

If you extend what you are purporting to microphones picking up the same loudspeaker, it's fairly common to use two microphones or more of completely different designs in studios to record loudspeakers, these are going to exhibit differing phase twists within their design take for instance a Royer r121 ribbon paired with a sm 57 dynamic we move one back and forth till we find what we are looking for phase interaction.
So is that against your audio rule book too. what if you have loudspeakers with the same diameter with different manufacturers and cabinets, Is that also outside the rule book.
Because if all that is wrong too, you have been listening to a hell of a lot of wrong thats somehow got regularly nominated for a Grammy.

The recording studio is quite different in terms of environment from a live setting. The microphones are detecting sound at two spatially separate points, and as you say, you move them to get the sound you want, some time will also go into EQ'ing and mixing the seperate mic signals, people don't tend to have the luxury of such fine control when on the stage. On stage you want your sound to be as uniform as possible in the environment (well, I do, I don't know about you).

Originally Posted by jungleheat

"The rules" can be a great guide, and especially useful if you're otherwise unsure of how to proceed (like most of the lost lot here on TB who need help tying their own shoes), or if you are trying to get a very specific sound that is a little more esoteric. But musicians throughout history have always made their own unconventional gear choices and thus revolutionized music as a whole. Look at Jimi Hendrix. He didn't give a damn about the "right" way to play guitar (no pun intended). He was concerned with the HENDRIX way of playing, and because he dared to go out into the cold dark night alone, with only his creative genius as a torch, he managed to inspire the whole world and change music forever.

...

So as I said, if it sounds good, it is good. Don't get too wrapped up in the science telling you it's wrong if the vibe is happening in the room.

While I get where you're coming from, I still don't think playing style is a great analogy for the issues we're talking about. And again, nobody has said not to use something that doesn't sound good. The OP posted a hypothetical and was asking what problems exist with mixed speaker systems.