An honest question here - 8X10 & 2X15 paired

[T-Bird]

Hi.

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

T-bird, you warm my heart. The day is coming when the majority become aware of the advantages to playing by the rules.

Thanks for the kind words mate.

I do have to admit that I haven't always thought like that though, that relization has come gradually over the years on both sides of the FOH console. In retrospect, it came too late to save my musician career, even though my lack of talent and dedication played a major role in it as well .

When behind on either FOH or foldback desk, it become very clear to me that the band didn't have to be very good in order to the patrons to like 'em, but their tone and the relative volume level had to. A few very talented (IMHO anyway) bands blew it by being too loud or otherwise just being plain jerks towards the audience.
They're after all who pay YOU.

Originally Posted by jungleheat

If you do what everyone else does, all the time, just because that's the "right" way, you'll be destined to be forgotten, just like everyone else.

And if You swim against the proverbial stream all the time, no-one even bothers to notice You, let alone forget.

Originally Posted by jungleheat

And to science genius man... There are functionally ENDLESS possibilities for a person's gear setup, starting with their choice of bass, continuing through any effects or processing they choose to use, and finally their choice of amplification and speakers. So to presume that just from the "numbers" you can accurately and effectively make a choice about all that, when the heart of music is creativity which is by it's very nature a very personal thing, is just ridiculous, not to mention extremely conceited.

I guess this was directed towards me, but I really fail to understand what all that ramble has got to do with different speakers behaving unpredictably with each-other?
And by doing so, effectively making the rest of the gear matter very little or not at all if the worst came to worst no less.

Originally Posted by Bassmec

Yes we have to be aware of comb filtering and other technical aspects of waves combining in air, but the result is, we always find ourselves suffering from acoustic problems in venues that don't chose to care exactly how in phase your drivers response may be at point source.

IMHO we may as well try to minimize the unavoidable acoustic problems by making sure we won't deliberately use a speaker system that has an erratic polar pattern.

Originally Posted by Bassmec

I would argue that engineering gigs all over the world at every scale since 1972 gives me the advantage of being involved in something music technology lecturers don't know about, called applied physics.

And Your argument would be perfectly valid as well, obviously .

However, what I've found on my considerably shorter "career" is that it's easier for the musicians to ruin the entertainment than to make it stand out from the grey matter that's offered by their competitors.

Granted, 9 times out of 10 IME it's either the guitarist or in a lesser degree the drummer that effs things up, but every once and a while the bassplayer manages to do it as well. Sinks closer to home-base obviously, so we bassplayers who do (or did, as it is in my case) FOH duty tend to notice.

Regards
Sam

[zachoff]

I tried it w/ my SVT & it was way too loud at the breakup I wanted. With anything other than maybe a 100W head, I'm not sure how useful it'd be. That's a ton of surface area.

Maybe a 410 & 215 but then you'll have the whole speaker mixing thing and blah blah stuff that I don't really understand.

[DigitalMan]

If you mix driver sizes, enclosure types, or even a rig plus front of house, you will get what are very likely minor additions and subtraction a at different frequencies based on difference in phase response of the different sources in sound.

These additions and subtraction a will in all likelihood be very, very minor. They will also be absolutely repeatable. If you are playing such a system, play each note on your fretboard once. In doing so, the phenomenon is no longer unpredictable. It is now absolutely known to the listener/player.

Non-scientists invoke science i order to make so much noise about this, but they confuse positional phase issues with response (time-related) phase issues. The net effect of mixing different sound sources of any kind is perfectly reproducible and is likely to have far less impact on your sound than even the most minor EQ tweaks, or environmental factors.

There are plenty of arguments to be made regarding the likability of the resultant sound. Regarding taste there is no argument.

The main thing to consider from a technical perspective when mixing cabinets is power handling. You don't want two enclosures with radically different power handling capabilities. Aside from that, the only real question is do you like how it sounds?

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by DigitalMan

If you mix driver sizes, enclosure types, or even a rig plus front of house, you will get what are very likely minor additions and subtraction a at different frequencies based on difference in phase response of the different sources in sound.

These additions and subtraction a will in all likelihood be very, very minor. They will also be absolutely repeatable. If you are playing such a system, play each note on your fretboard once. In doing so, the phenomenon is no longer unpredictable. It is now absolutely known to the listener/player.

Non-scientists invoke science i order to make so much noise about this, but they confuse positional phase issues with response (time-related) phase issues. The net effect of mixing different sound sources of any kind is perfectly reproducible and is likely to have far less impact on your sound than even the most minor EQ tweaks, or environmental factors.

There are plenty of arguments to be made regarding the likability of the resultant sound. Regarding taste there is no argument.

The main thing to consider from a technical perspective when mixing cabinets is power handling. You don't want two enclosures with radically different power handling capabilities. Aside from that, the only real question is do you like how it sounds?

I have spent 40 years choosing and matching my preferred cabs and monitoring them in studio looking for phase cancellations, recording them with a single distance mic etc. testing with all kinds of software and listening tests and having arrived at a result that has very little real phase anomaly in relation to the real world phase soup we all work live in, with a sound that pleases me, I get loads of people tell me here its not possible to match different size drivers at all, well to me that's just stupid insulting repeated dogma by those that just don't know or haven't tried hard enough.
So instead of just upsetting me, perhaps lets just talk about the phase differential between a cabinet with a 15" sub and a six inch mid with a passive low pass and passive high pass filter.
standing in exactly the same plane as a modern active bass DI fead PA monitor.
Now who's got a phase anomaly.

[zachoff]

Originally Posted by Bassmec

I have spent 40 years choosing and matching my preferred cabs and monitoring them in studio looking for phase cancellations, recording them with a single distance mic etc. testing with all kinds of software and listening tests and having arrived at a result that has very little real phase anomaly in relation to the real world phase soup we all work live in, with a sound that pleases me, I get loads of people tell me here its not possible to match different size drivers at all, well to me that's just stupid insulting repeated dogma by those that just don't know or haven't tried hard enough.
So instead of just upsetting me, perhaps lets just talk about the phase differential between a cabinet with a 15" sub and a six inch mid with a passive low pass and passive high pass filter.
standing in exactly the same plane as a modern active bass DI fead PA monitor.
Now who's got a phase anomaly.

Oh, snap!

[dincz]

Originally Posted by Bassmec

I get loads of people tell me here its not possible to match different size drivers at all

I guess they must have told you that by PM as the vast majority of posters on the topic simply say that mixing driver sizes is unpredictable. Search for "crapshoot".

[walterw]

or like i said in the third post of this thread, "it's not that those two cabs will sound horrible, catch on fire and make the baby jesus cry if you mix them together".

the point that the overall messiness of real-world sound often swamps or masks the anomalies of mixed cabs is a good one, but let's flip that around: when is mixing full-range bass cabs better? what do you gain by it?

[walterw]

Originally Posted by Bassmec

So instead of just upsetting me, perhaps lets just talk about the phase differential between a cabinet with a 15" sub and a six inch mid with a passive low pass and passive high pass filter.
standing in exactly the same plane as a modern active bass DI fead PA monitor.
Now who's got a phase anomaly.

now you're just smooshing two different issues together

are you really saying that multi-way cabs with each different driver only covering its own range are just like mixing different kinds of full-range drivers at the same time?

+1 about the mess of a bass cab behind you and a monitor in front of you both cranking out the same signal; it seems to me though that if either one were actually adequate to the task you would just use it and skip the other one!

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by walterw

or like i said in the third post of this thread, "it's not that those two cabs will sound horrible, catch on fire and make the baby jesus cry if you mix them together".

the point that the overall messiness of real-world sound often swamps or masks the anomalies of mixed cabs is a good one, but let's flip that around: when is mixing full-range bass cabs better? what do you gain by it?

I prefer the sound of my distortion for bass to come out of the Altec 15" alnico drivers as they don't have a tweeter but do have bright centre domes.
I don't want my eight by ten to sound distorted at all as it has a tweeter.
What I get is bags of power 3 sets of EQ two amps and pure bass sound mixing heaven.
I have an all active rig with an Acoustic 408 4X15 sub a 2x12 JBL 2206's and a pair of 2380a horns with 2445 drivers.
Driven with a JBL 260DSC crossover and a Calver amp for the horns and a lead sled Crown Macrotech 3600vz for the cones but I only built that to frighten music tech students when I was in a reggae band.

[Vince Klortho]

Calver ? I have never heard of them. Do you mean Carver ?

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by Vince Klortho

Calver ? I have never heard of them. Do you mean Carver ?

Sorry miss spelled it.
This is when I first put it together with a Carlesbro Pro 3000 for the cones:

Sorry it's an old picture.

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by walterw

now you're just smooshing two different issues together

are you really saying that multi-way cabs with each different driver only covering its own range are just like mixing different kinds of full-range drivers at the same time?

+1 about the mess of a bass cab behind you and a monitor in front of you both cranking out the same signal; it seems to me though that if either one were actually adequate to the task you would just use it and skip the other one!

No I am just saying that taking into consideration the ubiquitous yamaha ls9 digital live monitor consoles latency compounded by the dsp functions in the power amps + the lag of a heavy inductor based passive
Low pass filter, I guess I am looking at total phase soup here.
And thats without any room resonant acoustic effects or microphone spill.
I like the venue d console so I can set to work straightening it all out with waves micro delays. + the odd twiddly knobed little labs phase tool is jolly handy for the nagery bits.

[BozosBarber]

The discussion has been interesting so far -

I have actually talked to two speaker cab manufacturers customer service people (Mesa & Avatar) about this subject.

Both told me that it would be no problem from a technical standpoint and the guy from Avatar ( asked about a 4x10 & 15/6/tweeter combo from them ) indicated that it would be a killer rig.

So- the manufacturers seem to indicate it would not be a problem yet many here seem to think otherwise - what are the real issues here - if indeed there are any real issues.

[dukeorock]

Originally Posted by BozosBarber

The discussion has been interesting so far -

I have actually talked to two speaker cab manufacturers customer service people (Mesa & Avatar) about this subject.

Both told me that it would be no problem from a technical standpoint and the guy from Avatar ( asked about a 4x10 & 15/6/tweeter combo from them ) indicated that it would be a killer rig.

So- the manufacturers seem to indicate it would not be a problem yet many here seem to think otherwise - what are the real issues here - if indeed there are any real issues.

I hope I don't come off as snarky, but people who sell these cabs told you they would work perfectly together...what else are they gonna tell you?

[BozosBarber]

Originally Posted by dukeorock

I hope I don't come off as snarky, but people who sell these cabs told you they would work perfectly together...what else are they gonna tell you?

That did cross my mind...

I guess maybe I was waiting for them to suggest I get matching cabs...

[dukeorock]

Originally Posted by BozosBarber

That did cross my mind...

I guess maybe I was waiting for them to suggest I get matching cabs...

I think the quickest way to sell something is to just say, "Heck yeah, that'll work!" I have a small boutique cab company, so 2-3 bad reviews could bury me. The boutique companies have more incentive to tell you what they think is best for real. And I don't mean to imply other companies are outright lying, either. I agree with whoever said the best thing about a well matched system is that the audience is more likely to be hearing what you're hearing onstage, so that begs for a different way of thinking about cabs

[walterw]

Originally Posted by Bassmec

Sorry miss spelled it.
This is when I first put it together with a Carlesbro Pro 3000 for the cones:

Sorry it's an old picture.

i have to cover my ears just to look at that

[iualum]

Originally Posted by dukeorock

I hope I don't come off as snarky, but people who sell these cabs told you they would work perfectly together...what else are they gonna tell you?

There's no snarkiness (word? lol) in your post here. Only truth.

[makohund]

Originally Posted by Bassmec

No I am just saying that taking into consideration the ubiquitous yamaha ls9 digital live monitor consoles latency compounded by the dsp functions in the power amps + the lag of a heavy inductor based passive
Low pass filter, I guess I am looking at total phase soup here.
And thats without any room resonant acoustic effects or microphone spill.
I like the venue d console so I can set to work straightening it all out with waves micro delays. + the odd twiddly knobed little labs phase tool is jolly handy for the nagery bits.

Yeah. I do that at all of my rehearsals and bar gigs, too.

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by makohund

Yeah. I do that at all of my rehearsals and bar gigs, too.

I do that at all rehearsals because they are in the drum room here and that's operated via the main studios hardware protools system which of course has the same plugins and digital system controller for the drum room monitor system so its no bother to save settings and take them on the road with you.
If bar gigs are what really concern you, I am sort of surprised that you are interested in a thread about 8x10 + 2x15, I only do it to provide a clean dirty rig that's loud enough for anything my customers need to do, with only 300tube watts its great for rehearsals too:

This is the band Devilment rehearsing.
What's the betting you use more watts and less speakers.