How can 250w cut the mustard in a gig situation?

[CL400Peavey]

Originally Posted by modulusman

What would of made more sense IMO is if you would have used the money you spent on your bass rig to buy a better PA.

So I should furnish a PA for every group I play with? Haul it all around every place I go jam? Maybe I should buy a PA for every group I play with. Maybe I should just buy a PA for every venue I play at that doesnt have one.

Or I could be responsible for my own sound, expect others to do the same. I dont have to have my rig maxed out, ever. And it sounds just as good at lower volumes, as it does at higher volumes.

[qervo]

In ear monitors ...

[JoeVictim]

Originally Posted by scottbass

This is the reality of why some guys can carry a gig with a smaller rig and others can't. The difference in power and cab requirements between different types of bands is ENORMOUS. 5 or 6 dB more SPL requires hundreds of additional watts and corresponding speaker area.

At most club gigs I play with my blues band, two people seated at a table 15 feet from the band can carry on a conversation without having to yell at each other. Classic rock played to an audience with many over-40 members is usually the same way - perhaps just a bit louder.

If you NEED all that power and speaker area to generate the SPL to "keep up" with the rest of your band, (and I don't doubt that you do) you play in a very different type of band with a very different type of audience than the people who get by comfortably with smaller rigs.

+1. But at that point would it make more sense for the venue to have a juke box running through their sound system? I have never been to a concert of the "rock" variety where you could have a conversation with anyone, except either a) right in their ear hole yelling at them, or b) outside the venue. Otherwise, save your comments for between bands because you aren't going to have a conversation.

Of course I understand that different people will want different things (i.e. not everyone likes loud rock music). But, isn't that what the OP is talking about?If I can hear your conversation while the band is on, then it's not a loud band. IME, IMO.

[modulusman]

Originally Posted by JoeVictim

I wouldn't trade my 1100 watt, 4-15" rig for anything. Except maybe adding more speakers

OP, I'm picking up what you're putting down. Rock and Roll was born on the backs of guys carrying large amps. It feels blasphemous to use anything else in my rock band.

Rock and Roll was born back when PA systems totally sucked. Today it is totally different.

[modulusman]

Originally Posted by CL400Peavey

So I should furnish a PA for every group I play with? Haul it all around every place I go jam? Maybe I should buy a PA for every group I play with. Maybe I should just buy a PA for every venue I play at that doesnt have one.

Or I could be responsible for my own sound, expect others to do the same. I dont have to have my rig maxed out, ever. And it sounds just as good at lower volumes, as it does at higher volumes.

So you need a huge rig to jam in someones basement? A bass player that owns a decent PA is way more valuable to a band than one who owns a monster bass rig.

[sikamikanico]

i think we all play(ed) in such different situations, that it is hard to comment... I had about 250W 210 arrangement (Ashdown 300W 210@8Ohm combo) and it was sufficient for many situations. Mostly, it was just for the stage (PA help), sometimes for the whole room (smaller rooms, bars...)

But if you play outdoors and do not use PA, then I guess you might want to have more than 250W

[CL400Peavey]

Originally Posted by modulusman

So you need a huge rig to jam in someones basement? A bass player that owns a decent PA is way more valuable to a band than one who owns a monster bass rig.

Your volume needs are clearly different than mine. No I dont need my rig maxed out any place I play. But if I invested in a PA, then I wouldnt have a bass rig. The funny thing is, with my rig I can run vocals, and keys through my rig and it sounds great. I would bet that my cabs sound better than 90% of the crappy PA's that are hodge-podged together out there.

What works for me, works for me. What works for you, works for you. That is not commentary on your quality or how valuable you are as a bass player.

[JoeVictim]

Originally Posted by modulusman

Rock and Roll was born back when PA systems totally sucked. Today it is totally different.

Yes it is. A 2-15" cab can now weigh 40 lbs. And a tube head can weigh 36. A real revelation compared to the 150lb 8-10" and 90lb tube heads of yore. So, we don't have to kill ourselves. But, Rock and Roll is still about loud guitars. IMO, IME.

[1958Bassman]

Originally Posted by MontanaBassDude

Moderator - I'm seriously not trolling here. I honestly don't get this; in fact, I'm hoping people may see the light and start to agree with me.

I sit here at night and read post after post of rock bassists proclaiming their love and awe for a 250W head over a 2x10 cab. I don't doubt their sincerity and awe, but I don't get it.
(I'm talking about gigs where no bass signal is fed into the PA)

My 1500w head at 4 ohms into two 15" cabs goes with me to EVERY gig, indoors and out. Those two 3015LFs are pumping LOTS of air. Outdoor gigs, it's not nearly enough!

My bass signal is kept OUT of our PA; it's for keys, guitars, vocals, drums.

I often go listen to other rock bands with 200-500w bass rigs, and in my pathetic opinion, that nice, pulsing bass just isn't there, out in the room! I'm always stunned how anemic so many bands sound. Those low frequencies get absorbed by carpeting and curtains and bodies. It sounds wimpy, unimpressive, and really ho-hum.

Someday, recruit another bassist to stand in for you for one song, go out into the crowd, to the back and listen as your bass frequencies get sucked into oblivion.

I guess the general theme of my post is "If you're gonna play bass, go bigger, or go home". Because IMHO, the bass is supposed to be the most powerful element of R&R.

It's Acoustics 101 - Hey, I'm not looking for a fight, just tell me if you agree with me so I don't think I'm the lone nut job out there!

peace, brothers.

Intelligent PA system design means: design a system for the venue, not for the musicians' egos. If you play outside, your signal SHOULD go through the PA and the PA should be designed to handle all of it. You mention "Acoustics 101", but clearly missed the part about the way boundaries make a given power level work inside and not even come close outside. You shouldn't even try to provide the low end at an outdoor gig with your own equipment, unless you have enough to achieve the acoustic power levels needed. Unless you use horn-loaded speakers, you have no chance of people at the outer edges hearing you to any kind of useful degree. Ever hear of the "Inverse square Law"? It describes the effect of increasing hte distance from the listener/mic to the source and if you double the distance, the level drops by 6dB, making it sound like you cut your power to 1/4 of what it was.

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by modulusman

What would of made more sense IMO is if you would have used the money you spent on your bass rig to buy a better PA.

I am fairly certain that CL 400 peavey has a very good PA for his purposes.
However he might have discovered that the improvements available in terms point source separation and phase relationships in small clubs often outweigh the.
Lets all wang it in PA desk and see if we get any real separation in a tight narrow Club approach.
Personally in my experience, I think unless we need to disperse a signal
to a place it can't be heard clearly, there is often, more harm than good in DI'ing into the PA and or monitors in small clubs.
Especially true if its replacing power readily available from a well designed powerful point source, after all CL 400 has far better off axis performance than standard, that and clean sub bass is what these Fearful cabs really excel at.
It will all depend on the acoustics of the places you play.

[1958Bassman]

Originally Posted by MontanaBassDude

On outdoor gigs, yes, my bass signal is leaked into the PA as needed.

We've got a pretty decent PA - Mackie HD1531 over HD1501 subs.

But my rig into a PA isn't the point of my thread; how a 250W 2x10 rig can be enough for so many people, that's what puzzles me.

Take out the <50Hz stuff and it can be cranked louder than you would expect. It not only keeps the amp from wasting power on signal that doesn't matter to the overall sound, it keeps the sound from the bass from fighting with the kick drum/floor tom(s) and keys. Separation of bandwidth makes the sound much better than if every instrument is trying to win a battle in the same frequency range. In a large club, 2x10 can be a bit small and outdoors, it will never make any impact from a distance.

[1958Bassman]

Originally Posted by Bassmec

I am fairly certain that CL 400 peavey has a very good PA for his purposes.
However he might have discovered that the improvements available in terms point source separation and phase relationships in small clubs often outweigh the.
Lets all wang it in PA desk and see if we get any real separation in a tight narrow Club approach.
Personally in my experience, I think unless we need to disperse a signal
to a place it can't be heard clearly, there is often, more harm than good in DI'ing into the PA and or monitors in small clubs.
Especially true if its replacing power readily available from a well designed powerful point source, after all CL 400 has far better off axis performance than standard, that and clean sub bass is what these Fearful cabs really excel at.
It will all depend on the acoustics of the places you play.

Do you mean 'stereo separation', or separation of each instrument, so each can be heard distinctly? I can think of few bands that need to be mixed in stereo.

[bassboysam]

Originally Posted by modulusman

Rock and Roll was born back when PA systems totally sucked. Today it is totally different.

Not everyone on TB is playing stadiums, most play smaller venues that may or may not have PAs. In addition, from what I have read on this board over the many years, a lot of people on TB are playing in bands that are there as "background" entertainment (I am not saying that in a derogatory way) where the venue expects people that are there to be able to converse with each other and not be blown away by the band. In these cases yes smaller and/or lower powered rigs work just fine.

Beleive it or not though, there are people on TB in bands where they are the focal point of their gigs, and people go to the venue for the sole purpose of being entertained by the band. A lot of the times (not always) these are original bands playing small venues with little or no PA. In these cases, depending on the style of music, big amps and cabs are needed to create the atmosphere and entertain the people who paid money to come see you play. To say that loud amps are not needed today is simply wrong. it will vary from person to person and gig to gig.

[qervo]

I've used a 2x10 250 watt Nemesis for several years in a soul/funk band with no problem , but we didn't have a guitar player with a huge stack either. Our guitar player used a small combo. I will say that once I played with a loud rock band and my amp had a hard time keeping up with the Marshall stacks, the next time I played with them I brought a 400 watt amp. But most of the time a 2x10 with a little boost in the floor monitors will do the job in a local club scene.

[klejst]

If you are DI'ed or mic'ed through the PA it generally should not be a problem. Without PA support you just want to make sure you have a decent rig to be heard over the rest of your band. I always believed the more speakers the more sound and volume not how many watts (of course you want to have a decent amount though) but that is just me.

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by 1958Bassman

Do you mean 'stereo separation', or separation of each instrument, so each can be heard distinctly? I can think of few bands that need to be mixed in stereo.

I mean separation of instruments in a small club, while the bass rig is being operated by an expert, who would be sensitive to EQ and resonant peaks etc. both on stage and off, some bass players are quite biddable, in fact sound engineers have discovered quite recently, you can even say stuff like "pull 3dB out of it at 180Hz with a sharp q and I am happy" and they don't all just look at you blankly anymore.
PS Some engineers are real fussy and want to hear what kind of a row the band can come up with, before they switch the PA and monitors on and try to work out how to best REINFORCE the sound the band as a whole actually makes in that place.

[jeffreylee]

Originally Posted by MontanaBassDude

Moderator - I'm seriously not trolling here. I honestly don't get this; in fact, I'm hoping people may see the light and start to agree with me.

I sit here at night and read post after post of rock bassists proclaiming their love and awe for a 250W head over a 2x10 cab. I don't doubt their sincerity and awe, but I don't get it.
(I'm talking about gigs where no bass signal is fed into the PA)

My 1500w head at 4 ohms into two 15" cabs goes with me to EVERY gig, indoors and out. Those two 3015LFs are pumping LOTS of air. Outdoor gigs, it's not nearly enough!
[IMG][/IMG]
My bass signal is kept OUT of our PA; it's for keys, guitars, vocals, drums.

I often go listen to other rock bands with 200-500w bass rigs, and in my pathetic opinion, that nice, pulsing bass just isn't there, out in the room! I'm always stunned how anemic so many bands sound. Those low frequencies get absorbed by carpeting and curtains and bodies. It sounds wimpy, unimpressive, and really ho-hum.

Someday, recruit another bassist to stand in for you for one song, go out into the crowd, to the back and listen as your bass frequencies get sucked into oblivion.

I guess the general theme of my post is "If you're gonna play bass, go bigger, or go home". Because IMHO, the bass is supposed to be the most powerful element of R&R.

It's Acoustics 101 - Hey, I'm not looking for a fight, just tell me if you agree with me so I don't think I'm the lone nut job out there!

peace, brothers.

Every gig (other than REALLY small gigs) have had the bass running through the PA, so the rig I use is chosen depending on how loud the band is on stage. If I had to use a 1500w amp on stage, I would be deaf! For years I used a 250w head through 2 15"s and it was always loud enough. I upgraded for tone rather than volume, to either a 600w hybrid, or a 300w all tube head through either one or two cabs. I've never come close to testing the volume potential of my rig. You must play with some loud muthas!

[Lazarus.Bird]

Running 1000 watts into a 2x15. I suppose if I was playing weddings instead of melting faces a micro machines bass rig would be fine for me too.

[Emibass]

I use a DYI 2x6" 100watt combo amp and the other day I had to turn it down. And without PA support. It was in a more or less 100 people room.

[VanillaThundah]

If it's putting out too much wattage for the speakers to handle, it might sound like it's cutting the mustard...but likely without the smell. After long periods of time it would probably just smell like you were burning the mustard