How can 250w cut the mustard in a gig situation?

[Smokin' Toaster]

Originally Posted by Lazarus.Bird

You are seriously delusional.

Care to be specific, EDIT: about what I said that makes you think that or are you just being abrasive?

[dincz]

Originally Posted by Lazarus.Bird

You are seriously delusional.

Maybe he is but unlike you he's:
a. Right
b. Polite

[will33]

My 140-200 watts cuts the mustard every time, but those are GK watts....much louder. 200 Peavey watts thumps pretty good too.

[DiabolusInMusic]

I take an 800 watt running a 410 cab.... but since I don't play in complete dive bars I always have at least an acceptable P.A., and I always run to the FOH for a more balanced and even band sound. My amp never goes above 3 as it is there mostly for stage volume.

So does that count?

For the record I think what I have is overkill for shows, the 410 is mostly to keep up to my drummer in practice.

[CL400Peavey]

Originally Posted by Bassmec

This multi driver unit stuff is best left to the DI and a far cleaner tone expectation, than say classic tube overdrive like "Family Burlesque" and more extreme distortions through to the classic hardcore punk.

One of the thing that I really like about my cabs is that the tone of my DI to the PA is very similar to what is coming out of the cab. If I push my Pre into getting the tone/distortion I want through my cab, it sounds good through a PA as well. Does that mean I rethink the way I do things? Sure, but my rig actually becomes more plug and play with a PA.

[stratovani]

Originally Posted by MontanaBassDude

Moderator - I'm seriously not trolling here. I honestly don't get this; in fact, I'm hoping people may see the light and start to agree with me.

I sit here at night and read post after post of rock bassists proclaiming their love and awe for a 250W head over a 2x10 cab. I don't doubt their sincerity and awe, but I don't get it.
(I'm talking about gigs where no bass signal is fed into the PA)

My 1500w head at 4 ohms into two 15" cabs goes with me to EVERY gig, indoors and out. Those two 3015LFs are pumping LOTS of air. Outdoor gigs, it's not nearly enough!
[IMG][/IMG]
My bass signal is kept OUT of our PA; it's for keys, guitars, vocals, drums.

I often go listen to other rock bands with 200-500w bass rigs, and in my pathetic opinion, that nice, pulsing bass just isn't there, out in the room! I'm always stunned how anemic so many bands sound. Those low frequencies get absorbed by carpeting and curtains and bodies. It sounds wimpy, unimpressive, and really ho-hum.

Someday, recruit another bassist to stand in for you for one song, go out into the crowd, to the back and listen as your bass frequencies get sucked into oblivion.

I guess the general theme of my post is "If you're gonna play bass, go bigger, or go home". Because IMHO, the bass is supposed to be the most powerful element of R&R.

It's Acoustics 101 - Hey, I'm not looking for a fight, just tell me if you agree with me so I don't think I'm the lone nut job out there!

peace, brothers.

Certainly not picking a fight here, but from my perspective, and due to the fact that I'm closing in on 60, I (and my back) much prefer a nice lightweight rig and PA support. I can't afford a roadie, and from the looks of it your rig is way too big for me to handle. If it works for you, then terrific! For me, I just can't.

[CL400Peavey]

Originally Posted by stratovani

Certainly not picking a fight here, but from my perspective, and due to the fact that I'm closing in on 60, I (and my back) much prefer a nice lightweight rig and PA support. I can't afford a roadie, and from the looks of it your rig is way too big for me to handle. If it works for you, then terrific! For me, I just can't.

The weight argument is out the door. My biggest cab weighs less than my old 410. I down sized on weight.

[JoeVictim]

Originally Posted by Bassmec

No I think it's more small, like a bee in a bottle, without the amp and a decent cab. I am an old school engineer and I own bass specific microphones and I like to use them. A lot of the good things about old Ampeg classic 8x10's is they don't have tweeters so one mic gets it all, and in the right proportions, when you hit the dirt pedal.
Old school 2x15's the same story.
This multi driver unit stuff is best left to the DI and a far cleaner tone expectation, than say classic tube overdrive like "Family Burlesque" and more extreme distortions through to the classic hardcore punk.

You should move here and run sound. I would love it if I was asked about what mic I want, rather than butting heads about the DI...

[Foz]

If you play mid [as opposed to bass] then your power needs drop exponentially. This is true for a number of reasons not the least of which is the equal loudness curve...



Low frequency signal reproduction is non-trivial - even when the overall loudness of the band is not extreme. For example, from the chart above note that, in a group playing full bandwidth at a fairly modest 75 dBA range of loudness, an equivalent loudness 60Hz component of that signal will require +/- 20 dB more power than a 1k Hz component.

20 dB is a power ratio of 100. Ten watts at 1k Hz requires 1kw for 60 Hz equivalence [all other factors of efficiency being equal].

So, if you play bass... and I don't mean extreme low frequency - just strong sub 100 Hz content - and you play at a level anywhere near "loud", then having a 1.5 kw amp aint overkill - especially if you approach the job with a rational desire to leave some headroom / duty cycle on table when your rig hits max loudness on the low notes.

This is overkill...

[Ric5]

Originally Posted by millsbass5

Why don't you run thru the board? Let the P.A. do the work. Especially if your band has a good P.A.

Yep ... if you got subs and a PA with plenty of power then you only need a small amp.

Also if you band is not loud and you play a smaller room then you can do pa for vocals and everybody plays through a small amp at a lower volume.

You don't need concert volume levels for bar gigs.

My favorite bass head is my Ampeg B3. It is 150 watts at 4 ohms. It works well for rehersal and gigs without support as long as the band is not too loud.

When the band is louder and the room is bigger then I use the Ampeg B2 which is 350 watts at 4 ohms.

[bluewine]

Why can't you get pa support for your amp?

Blue

[CL400Peavey]

Originally Posted by bluewine

Why can't you get pa support for your amp?

Blue

Because either the venue's PA doesnt have subs, or they dont have a PA at all. I would rather carry the room with my rig, than purchase a full PA. Simpler for me, and I dont have to bare the burden of purchasing, maintaining, transporting, and setting up the entire PA.

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by CL400Peavey

One of the thing that I really like about my cabs is that the tone of my DI to the PA is very similar to what is coming out of the cab. If I push my Pre into getting the tone/distortion I want through my cab, it sounds good through a PA as well. Does that mean I rethink the way I do things? Sure, but my rig actually becomes more plug and play with a PA.

I does help enormously to have a pre amp sound that suits both your loudspeaker system as well as it does a good well eq'd PA and a serious studio monitor in a control room.
That's why I built a Acoustic/JBL active system as I can just send a spare output from my system controller as a DI out, then I can play with the phase of the my monitors via micro delays on stage and fine up with a little labs Phase tool in my channel insert in the front of house.
No more wobbly bass response with great big holes in it for me even with a DI. Great for Reggae.
But for some rock metal tones, I can't be without the brute force and ignorance of my 8x10 + 2x15 all tube rig kicking me in the arse.

[bluewine]

You could always "hail mary"

" I don't play unless I'm in the mix with the rest of the band"

Blue

[bassboysam]

Originally Posted by Bassmec

But for some rock metal tones, I can't be without the brute force and ignorance of my 8x10 + 2x15 all tube rig kicking me in the arse.

Plus it looks waaaay cooler

[CL400Peavey]

Originally Posted by bluewine

You could always "hail mary"

" I don't play unless I'm in the mix with the rest of the band"

Blue

The only thing we run through the PA is vocals.

[will33]

Ok, actually read the thread now, and yes, folks needs vary. Personally, my gigs are in between coffeeshop and metal show volumes. Places usually can hold maybe 50-60 people on the small end and maybe 150-200 on the big end. The band must be the main focus of entertainment on the dancefloor and front part of rooms, but folks in the back half must be able to converse without screaming in each others ears and bartenders must hear drink orders, etc. That may be completely different from someone elses usual gigs, so, use what works for you.

Sometimes it isn't just the volume that bothers people but the quality of the mix. If something sounds harsh and crappy, or muddy, washed out and unintelligible, people gonna say turn something down, or the whole band down, even though you could show them an spl meter that says it's already equal to or quieter than the good mix they didn't have any problem at all with, even though technically, it may've been a little louder. Some club owners also listen with their eyes. They see big rigs and piles of speakers, you're already too loud before you even turn it on.

[qervo]

If only thing going through the pa is vocals .. Imagine how your drummer feels with no kick drum mike.

[Sid Fang]

Originally Posted by MontanaBassDude

Moderator - I'm seriously not trolling here. I honestly don't get this; in fact, I'm hoping people may see the light and start to agree with me.

Yeah. Right.

I sit here at night and read post after post of rock bassists proclaiming their love and awe for a 250W head over a 2x10 cab. I don't doubt their sincerity and awe, but I don't get it.
(I'm talking about gigs where no bass signal is fed into the PA)

You may be talking about that, but were they? Not using the PA, I mean. A lot depends on the style of music, but 250W is enough raw power for most bars, though if you're just going to do it with a single 2x10, you'd better stack that cabinet up on something to get some elevation. The limitations of such a rig are more in the speakers than in the amperage per se.

A classic SVT is only 300W, but through an 8x10, it kicks some serious ass. Through a 2x10, not so much...

If you *are* able to use the PA, and only need your rig for stage monitioring, than 250W+2x10 is probably adequate unless you're working with a psychopath drummer.

[CL400Peavey]

Originally Posted by qervo

If only thing going through the pa is vocals .. Imagine how your drummer feels with no kick drum mike.

I dont worry about him at all. He is angry at his drum set, and has no problem hanging.