How can 250w cut the mustard in a gig situation?

[will33]

Originally Posted by majortoby

Well, I plan on getting a 200watter (GK MB200) and running it into either one 3015, or two Deltalite II 2512's. Although I won't be pumping out massive amounts of reggae dub bass, I assure you it will be all the bright, aggressive, cutting Jbass growl I need for now :-) That rig is F-ing sweet, btw!

Point of reference if you're interested....

My current go-to gig rig is a 400RB (older 200 watt model) and a pair of DeltaliteII 2512's. This carries a room of up to 50-80 people and easily covers the stage in larger rooms and outdoors when you do have PA help, doing typical classic rock with some motown or country mixed in depending on the audience, at typical barband volumes. Meaning you're the main focus on the dancefloor but people can carry on a conversation at the back of the room.

You can think of the general loudness to be about on par with a typical 410, but with better dispersion, a little fuller bottom and strong upper mid output that cuts through a mix, puts definition to your notes, and gets you heard when you have bodies and carpet and stuff trying to tame down those upper frequencies. My usual settings after the room fills up, or is dull sounding to begin with, are to cut the bass a notch, and boost the lowmid (250hz) and high mid (1khz) a notch. This results in a tone that's just a bit less fat and a bit more midrangey than one might like up close to it on stage, but step out into the audience and it sits beautifully in the mix. The lows come back and the mids are tamed a bit out there.

The 200 watts is in a good spot where you can really crank it up and get the GK growl and grind without ending up too loud for the room. With my 800RB, before I stupidly fried the outputs, I had to hold it back a little more.

With the sensitivity and the 8ohm load of the 3015, it should end up a couple db lower in output than the pair of 12's, with a bit different flavor in the woofers top end, but still sound quite nice and allow you to "run the amp to the rails" and get that sound.


That's quite a bit of rambling I guess. Just trying to explain what you might expect from your proposed setup.

[MontanaBassDude]

Originally Posted by Crazyeelboy

To the OP - if you are putting everything else through the PA and leaving the bass entirely to your rig, there is no wonder why you are having trouble keeping up. Go through the PA and participate in the mixing and you will find that you have a much easier go of it.

OP here: WOW. I never said any of this! My rig keeps up just fine, thank you.

To everyone - we have a great PA system. It handles four vocals, keyboards, all guitars and drums. We try to avoid feeding my bass signal into it which can only muddy things up.

At the risk of watching my topic get highjacked, I will say that my band avoids putting my bass through the PA to avoid all those wierd LF filtering effects that happen from using two separated FOH Subs; dead spots, fazing, etc.

Please, let's not go there. Suffice it to say that in my humble geezer opinion, a small rig must rely on a PA, which can be less than optimal - and having that one big source of powerful bass can't be beat.

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by JoeVictim

You should move here and run sound. I would love it if I was asked about what mic I want, rather than butting heads about the DI...

Actually my family are sort half american anyway, my young cous Justin used to run Gridlock studios in Casselbury Florida before Chango bought him out.
He is running his studio in St Thomas US Virgin Islands in partnership with Brett Hestler. from Creed, Dark New Day etc.
A great studio if you like piña colada for breakfast.
My two sons are very reputable engineers as well, so in a way we are a kind of mid Atlantic sound engineering dynasty.

[Waldo19]

I feel like there is a watts arms race at the moment. Seems every few weeks the number of watts needed to play a small gig is increasing. Maybe its just me.

But at one point it seemed like the general consensus was 100-250w for a small Rock and Roll gig with 2 guitars. Now it seems you need 300+ just to be heard over an un-miked drummer.

[bassboysam]

Originally Posted by Waldo19

I feel like there is a watts arms race at the moment. Seems every few weeks the number of watts needed to play a small gig is increasing. Maybe its just me.

But at one point it seemed like the general consensus was 100-250w for a small Rock and Roll gig with 2 guitars. Now it seems you need 300+ just to be heard over an un-miked drummer.

it's the cheaper chinese watts...

[will33]

Originally Posted by CL400Peavey

I dont worry about him at all. He is angry at his drum set, and has no problem hanging.

Bassmec has some great points about the sound getting all messed up having it come from so many different sources in a small place. With your setup, when necessary, I'd be inclined to run a kick mic and maybe an overhead through a small mixer patched through your rig. The cab could no doubt do it justice and you'd still have all the bands LF coming from one source. Or maybe put the kick mic through your rig and the overhead through the vocal PA or something for some ambience/dispersion. Making it fuller but not necessarily much louder.

It may bother some folks having drums come through their bass rig, but I've done it before in a pinch and quite liked it. It's like the kick is hooked up to your finger and puts a big attack on your notes.

[CL400Peavey]

Originally Posted by will33

Bassmec has some great points about the sound getting all messed up having it come from so many different sources in a small place. With your setup, when necessary, I'd be inclined to run a kick mic and maybe an overhead through a small mixer patched through your rig. The cab could no doubt do it justice and you'd still have all the bands LF coming from one source. Or maybe put the kick mic through your rig and the overhead through the vocal PA or something for some ambience/dispersion. Making it fuller but not necessarily much louder.

It may bother some folks having drums come through their bass rig, but I've done it before in a pinch and quite liked it. It's like the kick is hooked up to your finger and puts a big attack on your notes.

+1

This is essentially how we run. My rig ends up carrying the keys too.

[funnyfingers]

Eric Lifeson says that Geddy Lee plugs straight into the board. I guess he doesn't mind losing some tone...

[MontanaBassDude]

Originally Posted by Smokin' Toaster

It's called "stage volume". If you are depending on the amp on stage to fill a large room, you are either
a) overpowering everyone else in the band, or
b) forcing them to turn up to hear themselves and be heard over you, resulting in
c) hearing damage.
Keep cranking your 1500 watt amp up at gigs and by the time you are my age your tinnitus will be more than quite noticeable - It will be so loud as to be intolerable.

It could also be called "volume from the stage". Everything in our band is fed through the FOH PA and monitors. Our guitar players don't even have amps. So everyone else dictates my amp's volume.

Respectfully - you've already convicted me of overcranking my volume. At the sound check, our volume and mix is set, period.

BTW, yes, I use in-ear monitors. And EVERYONE SHOULD WEAR EAR PLUGS... even you 200w dedicates!

[majortoby]

Originally Posted by will33

My 140-200 watts cuts the mustard every time, but those are GK watts....much louder. 200 Peavey watts thumps pretty good too.

Ah William, you ease my mind about wanting the mb200. Much thanks

[funnyfingers]

I find it strange that the guitarists don't have amps... very strange indeed.

[will33]

Originally Posted by MontanaBassDude

OP here: WOW. I never said any of this! My rig keeps up just fine, thank you.

To everyone - we have a great PA system. It handles four vocals, keyboards, all guitars and drums. We try to avoid feeding my bass signal into it which can only muddy things up.

At the risk of watching my topic get highjacked, I will say that my band avoids putting my bass through the PA to avoid all those wierd LF filtering effects that happen from using two separated FOH Subs; dead spots, fazing, etc.

Please, let's not go there. Suffice it to say that in my humble geezer opinion, a small rig must rely on a PA, which can be less than optimal - and having that one big source of powerful bass can't be beat.

Pile your subs together and wall or corner load them when you can. They shouldn't be split unless you are in a place large enough to place them far enough apart so as not to interfere with each other, which, depending on where you set your highpass, could be 40-60 feet. As is, you've got LF interference from 3 sources, the kick in both subs split apart and the LF from your rig. Even if you do carry the room with your rig, it would work out better to stack the subs together and place your rig right next to them. Subs should never come with pole mount cups but most do. It isn't a case of the having the bass in the PA muddying up the mix, it's poor implementation of the PA itself. Run a low frequency tone through your system setup up as is, bass rig included, and walk around the room. You will find areas where the LF is nearly all gone and areas where it's overwhelming. Then stack the all together and do the same thing. No room is perfect but you will find that the LF consistency throughout a much larger portion of the room is greatly improved.

Just a suggestion as how to better implement your system there. Not trying to start $#!+.

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by CL400Peavey

+1

This is essentially how we run. My rig ends up carrying the keys too.

Getting well mixed stuff out of a good clean point source, circa centre stage is not going to be at all upsetting to me in a small venue.
It's a very good plan for cohesive audio LF glue with shockingly great clarity.

[MontanaBassDude]

Originally Posted by modulusman

What would of made more sense IMO is if you would have used the money you spent on your bass rig to buy a better PA.

Modulusman - you already know Art. It's his PA, and arguably it's the best non-rental PA in the city. And I've got one of the three best bass rigs in the state.

Our PA handles everything our band puts out, except for the bass.

[majortoby]

Originally Posted by will33

Point of reference if you're interested....

My current go-to gig rig is a 400RB (older 200 watt model) and a pair of DeltaliteII 2512's. This carries a room of up to 50-80 people and easily covers the stage in larger rooms and outdoors when you do have PA help, doing typical classic rock with some motown or country mixed in depending on the audience, at typical barband volumes. Meaning you're the main focus on the dancefloor but people can carry on a conversation at the back of the room.

You can think of the general loudness to be about on par with a typical 410, but with better dispersion, a little fuller bottom and strong upper mid output that cuts through a mix, puts definition to your notes, and gets you heard when you have bodies and carpet and stuff trying to tame down those upper frequencies. My usual settings after the room fills up, or is dull sounding to begin with, are to cut the bass a notch, and boost the lowmid (250hz) and high mid (1khz) a notch. This results in a tone that's just a bit less fat and a bit more midrangey than one might like up close to it on stage, but step out into the audience and it sits beautifully in the mix. The lows come back and the mids are tamed a bit out there.

The 200 watts is in a good spot where you can really crank it up and get the GK growl and grind without ending up too loud for the room. With my 800RB, before I stupidly fried the outputs, I had to hold it back a little more.

With the sensitivity and the 8ohm load of the 3015, it should end up a couple db lower in output than the pair of 12's, with a bit different flavor in the woofers top end, but still sound quite nice and allow you to "run the amp to the rails" and get that sound.


That's quite a bit of rambling I guess. Just trying to explain what you might expect from your proposed setup.

Bingo. Exactly what I was wanting! Now I KNOW I've chosen wisely!

[MontanaBassDude]

Originally Posted by will33

Pile your subs together and wall or corner load them when you can. They shouldn't be split unless you are in a place large enough to place them far enough apart so as not to interfere with each other, which, depending on where you set your highpass, could be 40-60 feet. As is, you've got LF interference from 3 sources, the kick in both subs split apart and the LF from your rig. Even if you do carry the room with your rig, it would work out better to stack the subs together and place your rig right next to them. Subs should never come with pole mount cups but most do. It isn't a case of the having the bass in the PA muddying up the mix, it's poor implementation of the PA itself. Run a low frequency tone through your system setup up as is, bass rig included, and walk around the room. You will find areas where the LF is nearly all gone and areas where it's overwhelming. Then stack it all together and do the same thing. No room is perfect but you will find that the LF consistency throughout a much larger portion of the room is greatly improved.

Just a suggestion as how to better implement your system there. Not trying to start $#!+.

Bingo! Agreed! Maybe you've helped make my point here. So many posters here say "use the PA." I'll bet none of them "use the PA" as you've suggest above, to eliminate the wierd bass things that split PAs can cause.

A big single bass source (like my rig) helps eliminate the comb filtering. Small rigs = PA usage = potential phase cancellation = wimpy or no bass. Thank you Will33.

[obimark]

I've played some small gigs with PA only, (and not much of it) definetely not ideal, because you kind of hear your sound "bouncing" back at you. It can be done though, and if you had a REALLY good PA, you might do it all the time with a Sansamp DI or the like only...

[nysbob]

It ain't the watts...

it's what you do with them.

I can and do play many, many gigs through a 100W V4B and two 15"s. These aren't metal gigs, but not quiet gigs either, mostly without PA support. I've got an SVT head available, but really only need all gas that in extreme situations.

[CL400Peavey]

Originally Posted by nysbob

It ain't the watts...

it's what you do with them.

I can and do play many, many gigs through a 100W V4B and two 15"s. These aren't metal gigs, but not quiet gigs either, mostly without PA support. I've got an SVT head available, but really only need all gas that in extreme situations.

+1

I will agree with that, and it goes back to FOZ's point about how much power it takes, and you go lower in frequency.

[AdamR]

250 watts and 210s in not enough for anything but small gigs. Thats why I use 350 watts and 212s.