How can 250w cut the mustard in a gig situation?

[Primakurtz]

To answer the OP's topic title: it's all about the speakers.
Two or three hundred watts can get very loud through a pair of 15" Faital speakers, IME.
Very, very loud - "turn down, you are drowning out the psycho double kick drummer and the guitards" loud.

[will33]

Originally Posted by MontanaBassDude

Bingo! Agreed! Maybe you've helped make my point here. So many posters here say "use the PA." I'll bet none of them "use the PA" as you've suggest above, to eliminate the wierd bass things that split PAs can cause.

A big single bass source (like my rig) helps eliminate the comb filtering. Small rigs = PA usage = potential phase cancellation = wimpy or no bass. Thank you Will33.

Look up Duke LeJeune's "AudioKinesis Swarm" system for a different, and way cool, approach to handling LF. It's based on the concept that no room is perfect and there will always be peaks and nulls. This is sort of an opposite approach. Isn't remedied by reducing the peaks and nulls as much as possible with clustered placement but rather to make more of them with scattered placement. Enough to where our ears can put it all together. This is done by positioning several subs in such a way that ones peak fills in another ones null and when you put it all together it ends up with very even bass throughout the room. That is geared more toward a hifi listening room. It could be expanded upon for use in large, live sound places, but it's very room dependent. You have to figure out a different placement scheme for each and every venue you play....and own a whole lot of subs.. Quite interesting approach though and makes ones wheels get to spinning up there in the noodle.

In any case, either the clustered approach or the swarm approach is a much better solution than placing 2 subs at such a distance apart from each other as to create a giant suckout right in the bandwidth they're supposed to be playing....which is exactly what happens when they are placed either side of the stage with a main on top of each, like is shown in all the advertisements, facilitated by the included pole cups, and heard in many, many venues.

[wcoffey81]

the op of this thread was asking a question and, like a lot of threads here do, it ended up an argument complete with name calling. the mods should do a little housecleaning and remove any posts that have nothing to do with the op's question!

just because someone has 4x15 and 1500 watts doesn't mean that they use 100% of it all the time. the last time i checked most amps have a volume control that adjusts from 1 through 10. i have yet to see one that is either 1 or 10.

to those of you in the 1x10 and 200 watt plus D-I users club. when your signal enters the PA aren't you also using a % of the total wattage capability of the PA? add to that the usage of all the speakers in the PA array? you may have more wattage and speaker potential available than the bassist with the 4x15+1500w. so does that make you automatically too loud as well? or does it make your volume more acceptable because someone else has their hand on the volume control? so for you to say that you are carrying the venue with a 200w and 1x10 is not really the truth is it?

EDIT yes it's fine if my post would get killed. i'm no better than anyone else

[will33]

Originally Posted by wcoffey81

the op of this thread was asking a question and, like a lot of threads here do, it ended up an argument complete with name calling. the mods should do a little housecleaning and remove any posts that have nothing to do with the op's question!

just because someone has 4x15 and 1500 watts doesn't mean that they use 100% of it all the time. the last time i checked most amps have a volume control that adjusts from 1 through 10. i have yet to see one that is either 1 or 10.

to those of you in the 1x10 and 200 watt plus D-I users club. when your signal enters the PA aren't you also using a % of the total wattage capability of the PA? add to that the usage of all the speakers in the PA array? you may have more wattage and speaker potential available than the bassist with the 4x15+1500w. so does that make you automatically too loud as well? or does it make your volume more acceptable because someone else has their hand on the volume control? so for you to say that you are carrying the venue with a 200w and 1x10 is not really the truth is it?

It'll carry the venue all by itself at CuppaJoe's Gourmet Coffee & Pastries.

[ChristianOnBass]

It has been a long time since I have done any serious gigging, but my experiences back then are still valid for info I hope! Mom bought me an early high school graduation present: A Peavey Combo with a 15in BW, rated at 130. That thing was so loud that by the time I turned up enough to get my "Sound" I was too loud to run through the PA...which saved headroom for vocals and drums, but made it impossible to record us live very well. That is why I am worried hearing about bassists with 300 or 500 watts not having enough power. I am going to buy an amp very soon--like within a week--and I am getting concerned! I played bass for a few churches recently. I had a Peavey 12in, I believe the model was a "Basic". It worked well enough, great actually. Someone at the church gave it to me since I was living at the Mission in Tacoma at the time. I am going to buy the nicest amp I can. There are bands wanting me to play bass for them, but I am without an amp. Wish me luck! I will try to get at least 300 watts so I cam jam!

[obimark]

I clearly stated I played my last two medium size bar gigs, with ONLY my TC BG250, Nothing else, nada, no PA, nothing.
Never turned it up past 5.5.
So even though it isn't a 2x10, it is a 250 watt 1 15 combo, which is quite comparable to the OP's question.

[Sid Fang]

Originally Posted by wcoffey81

the op of this thread was asking a question and, like a lot of threads here do, it ended up an argument complete with name calling. the mods should do a little housecleaning and remove any posts that have nothing to do with the op's question!

Should they include your post as well, considering...

just because someone has 4x15 and 1500 watts doesn't mean that they use 100% of it all the time. the last time i checked most amps have a volume control that adjusts from 1 through 10. i have yet to see one that is either 1 or 10.

Your point being? Nobody has said that a 1500W, 4x15 rig can't be played quietly. The argument has been over whether a gigging bassist actually NEEDS anything close to that big a rig for anything other than show.

[Sid Fang]

Originally Posted by obimark

I clearly stated I played my last two medium size bar gigs, with ONLY my TC BG250, Nothing else, nada, no PA, nothing.
Never turned it up past 5.5.
So even though it isn't a 2x10, it is a 250 watt 1 15 combo, which is quite comparable to the OP's question.

Yeah, but I bet you know how to use EQ...

[CL400Peavey]

Originally Posted by obimark

I clearly stated I played my last two medium size bar gigs, with ONLY my TC BG250, Nothing else, nada, no PA, nothing.
Never turned it up past 5.5.
So even though it isn't a 2x10, it is a 250 watt 1 15 combo, which is quite comparable to the OP's question.

And if that works for you, that is all that matter for you. Everyone's needs will be different.

[qervo]

I have used multiple cabinets on each side of the stage , depends on the room. Try it if ya can

[garmenteros]

I get by all my gigs with an ampeg heritage 4 10 and an acoustic 370, with or without PA. The other day I decided to use my backup instead (acoustic150b) which is rated at 100watts and I got the job done nicely. This was a medium sized bar/club with 200 something people. I had no problem hearing myself or being heard. Depends really how you EQ yourself as well as the rest of the band (getting by with 200watts or less).

EDIT: Forgot to mention I had PA support that gig though.

[stepswork4me]

IIIIIIII.... Love a paraaaade....

[will33]

Originally Posted by qervo

I have used multiple cabinets on each side of the stage , depends on the room. Try it if ya can

I've done this as well, but for more monitoring for my guitarist and drummer on big outdoor stages. That's a case where everyone is in the PA. In fact, I had no cabs behind me, just my amp laying on the floor, but, I also had a big 215+horn sidefill just a few feet away with a whole mix in it. In a case like that, my little bass cabs can't put out anything near strong enough to mess with a pile of Vega horn subs.

When carrying a club with your rig like that though, it will cause oddities down in the bass region somewhere. It may sound good standing in certain areas of the room, and to the people on stage, but there will be other areas of the audience whefe the low frequencies are a mess, or almost non-existant. The purpose of clustering the LF sources is more even coverage and consistency. The tops are spread out for greater coverage as to better disperse the upper frequencies. They are placed farther apart than the wavelength of the lowest frequency they are producing. Usually somewhere around 100hz when using subs.

[phillybass101]

I'm a funk player so take this with a grain of salt. Your band must be loud as hell. Fior years I gigged with a Trace Elliott GPSM7 300. 280 British watts as they say and could never fully turn up. Even at outside gigs. If you need to be so loud you should be going through the PA.

[LiquidMidnight]

Originally Posted by Waldo19

I feel like there is a watts arms race at the moment. Seems every few weeks the number of watts needed to play a small gig is increasing. Maybe its just me.

My favorite is the "you need 4x the power as your guitarist" axiom, because it assumes that your guitarist is always running their rig to its full capacity.

The guitarist in my last band had a Mesa 2:90, which he could have torn heads off with if he had wanted to. He probably wasn't even using half of its output on the average gig we played.

I'm more concerned with how a guitarist approaches tone (i.e., are they a mid-scooping jackass?) than the raw number of watts in their head. Some idiot with a smiley-face EQ curve is going to make being heard a challenge, regardless if you have 200 watts or 2000 watts (and it's going to pretty much destroy the overall mix of the band, anyways).

[plankspanker13]

My TC Electronics BG250 is a great combo. It has gotten me through a bunch of loud gigs, sometimes with no help from the PA, and I have never had to go past halfway up, with it. I do maintain the ability to DI from both it, and my large pedalboard, and supplement it with smaller amps. I'm waiting for the ability to get the lightest 600W@4ohm cab(s) for my Warwick WA600s head (FB contest prize that I have yet to play through), but do not have to be in a hurry. There simply is not a need to be in the Richter scale, just yet.

[will33]

Originally Posted by LiquidMidnight

My favorite is the "you need 4x the power as your guitarist" axiom, because it assumes that your guitarist is always running their rig to its full capacity.

The guitarist in my last band had a Mesa 2:90, which he could have torn heads off with if he had wanted to. He probably wasn't even using half of its output on the average gig we played.

I'm more concerned with how a guitarist approaches tone (i.e., are they a mid-scooping jackass?) than the raw number of watts in their head. Some idiot with a smiley-face EQ curve is going to make being heard a challenge, regardless if you have 200 watts or 2000 watts (and it's going to pretty much destroy the overall mix of the band, anyways).

This^^

My guitarist runs a 100 watt halfstack but always keeps it reigned in. Mix slotting is the key to hearing what all the musicians are playing, not just raw volume.

[christw]

I match my amps to the band and gig. I can go from 30w with an SVT loaded 410 to 300w with an 18/6. My happy range is a 100w-150w tube amp with that 410. It's not loud enough to hurt but it's enough to carry most rooms I'll play here. For the rest, there's PA. IMO/IME.

If I played more SS amps I'd need 200w/410 as a gig/practice baseline.

[qervo]

This is how billy Sheehan sets his amp

Or maybe you need this

[LiquidMidnight]

Originally Posted by will33

This^^

My guitarist runs a 100 watt halfstack but always keeps it reigned in. Mix slotting is the key to hearing what all the musicians are playing, not just raw volume.

Indeed, and the "4x the power" axiom also ignores speakers (and of course, speaker efficiency). Yeah, a guitarist may have a 100-watt Marshall, but are they playing that through an open-back 2x12 cabinet or a full 8x12 stack? If it's the former, you probably aren't going to need that mega-watt rig that requires a nuclear reactor to power.

P.S. Also forgot to mention that the guitarist in my current project uses a Peavey power amp. I think it's somewhere in the nieghborhood of 1600watts. I've played gigs with my Mesa 400+ (tubes) and Micro-VR (solid-state). I just did a gig last week with my SVT-II, no PA support, and the volume was on "1". Those 200 - 300 watt amps have had no problem producing enough volume to play with my guitarist. In fact, there were times where they may have been too loud. I don't need 6,400 watts to play in my band because some ill-concieved heuristic says that I do.

[/slaughtering TB sacred cows]