How can 250w cut the mustard in a gig situation?

[makohund]

I've been running my 1212/6/1 on one channel of my amp recently... 450W. I could bridge for 1500W, and they can take most of that, but... Usually not needed. It gets pretty damn loud with just 450W.

[modulusman]

Originally Posted by MontanaBassDude

It could also be called "volume from the stage". Everything in our band is fed through the FOH PA and monitors. Our guitar players don't even have amps. So everyone else dictates my amp's volume.

Respectfully - you've already convicted me of overcranking my volume. At the sound check, our volume and mix is set, period.

BTW, yes, I use in-ear monitors. And EVERYONE SHOULD WEAR EAR PLUGS... even you 200w dedicates!

So everyone else in the band has figured out that to get the best sound for the band lose the amps but you. Maybe they are hoping you will get the hint.

[MontanaBassDude]

Originally Posted by droskobass

If I'm plugging into a 45,000 watt PA do I need a 1000 watt amp? or just a great sounding Amp at any power? like my 30 watt 1967 B15?

I'll take tone over power. An amp is supposed to be a musical instrument, not a shop vac. I've played the same festival stages as Aerosmith with a 450 watt Glockenklang and it rattled windows 3 miles away, because there was 45,000 watt PA

You have great points, Droskobass, and your TB contributions are always valid.

You said you'll take tone over power -- Respectfully, in this case, I wonder if you're contradicting yourself? Your 67 Fender and Gklang undoubtedly sound stunning... but mic them or DI them through a 45kw PA, with a hack engineer at the mixing board, and he can turn your beautiful bass tone into a dreadful droning mess. IMIO -- In my ignorant opinion, feed your bass audio into a PA, and you've effectively castrated your "perfect tone". A whole different topic?

I think the upshot of the responses has been "One person's loud is another person's quiet." I'm seeing the light. Thanks all for your thoughtful comments. Not much sarcasm - I appreciate it!

[armybass]

Has nothing to do with the amp and everything to do with the style of music and what is appropriate for the gig. Thumping bass presence that gills the entire venue is not necessary for every gig. It in fact would get me fired from about 80% of my gigs. Play music not bass and let your ears tell you what is necessary..... Not what is written on the back of the amp.

[armybass]

Fills. LOL

[Chef]

250 watts into a 210?
That would never work for me, except for rehearsal.

For gigs, I'm bringing 500-800 watts, and 2x112. Mostly, I don't have to push it hard, but, I can if I need to, and, it stays cleaner, and is way fuller and meatier.

ymmv.

[Jim Carr]

Pop Quiz:

Starting with 250 watts of audio power, how many watts would it take, theoretically, to double the Loudness? I do mean Loudness, not power.

[FatherBass]

I've done some thinking, and while a big PA is IMHO the optimal solution, there is a problem. Who pays for it? It's not reasonable to expect the singer to fork up for a huge PA that will float the whole band. Having everyone chip in sounds good, but then it gets like a marriage. What happens if the band breaks up? As I'm sure everyone here realizes, that is NOT an uncommon situation. If the vocalist or another band member doesn't want to buy it out from the rest of the members then it has to be sold and the money divided among the members. What if just one or two people leave?

So I can see that while the big PA IS optimal, band members could decide just to get their own high powered amps and let the singer fork up for a PA which covers him and maybe the drummer. That way no headaches or arguments if the band breaks up or members leave.

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by Jim Carr

Pop Quiz:

Starting with 250 watts of audio power, how many watts would it take, theoretically, to double the Loudness? I do mean Loudness, not power.

500 watts gets you + 3dB, twice that get you another 3 dB get your self twice that again is another 3 dB so at >2000 watts that will be nearly twice as loud.

[Jim Carr]

Check this:



Source: http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-levelchange.htm

[will33]

Originally Posted by FatherBass

I've done some thinking, and while a big PA is IMHO the optimal solution, there is a problem. Who pays for it? It's not reasonable to expect the singer to fork up for a huge PA that will float the whole band. Having everyone chip in sounds good, but then it gets like a marriage. What happens if the band breaks up? As I'm sure everyone here realizes, that is NOT an uncommon situation. If the vocalist or another band member doesn't want to buy it out from the rest of the members then it has to be sold and the money divided among the members. What if just one or two people leave?

So I can see that while the big PA IS optimal, band members could decide just to get their own high powered amps and let the singer fork up for a PA which covers him and maybe the drummer. That way no headaches or arguments if the band breaks up or members leave.

Yup. That can make for some big and expensive headaches.

I own my PA, all of it. I put it together a piece or 2 at a time, with the help of used gear deals and some fixing/modding/building of my own, got the stuff very reasonably priced and I still improve/add-on a piece at
a time. If I didn't know how to fix or build stuff, I would've ended up spending a good deal more for less system. Going out and dropping a few thousand $ on a nice new system is just not an option for me and
would be prohibitive for a lot of people who don't make their living soing sound.

Best advice I have is get it a piece at a time as you can afford and own it. No band breakups/member changes will matter then. Mine is scalable from just being a powered mixer and pair of speakers with enough ins and outs to tie another board into it for more channels to adding more poweramps, subs, monitor amps, effects and stuff to ramp up as needed.

[Jim Carr]

Originally Posted by Bassmec

500 watts gets you + 3dB, twice that get you another 3 dB get your self twice that again is another 3 dB so at >2000 watts that will be nearly twice as loud.

Ding, Ding, Ding. We have a winner!

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Originally Posted by Jim Carr

Pop Quiz:

Starting with 250 watts of audio power, how many watts would it take, theoretically, to double the Loudness? I do mean Loudness, not power.

Percieved doubling in audio volume requires the amplifier power to be increased by an order of magnitude, so you'd require a 2500 watt amplifier. That's assuming the speaker used reacts with the same sensitivity at both 250 and 2500 watts.

[modulusman]

Originally Posted by FatherBass

I've done some thinking, and while a big PA is IMHO the optimal solution, there is a problem. Who pays for it? It's not reasonable to expect the singer to fork up for a huge PA that will float the whole band. Having everyone chip in sounds good, but then it gets like a marriage. What happens if the band breaks up? As I'm sure everyone here realizes, that is NOT an uncommon situation. If the vocalist or another band member doesn't want to buy it out from the rest of the members then it has to be sold and the money divided among the members. What if just one or two people leave?

So I can see that while the big PA IS optimal, band members could decide just to get their own high powered amps and let the singer fork up for a PA which covers him and maybe the drummer. That way no headaches or arguments if the band breaks up or members leave.

Well if you plan on doing the music thing for a long time then it makes sense to invest in a quality PA IMO. What you can bring to your next band can be the difference of whether you get the gig or the other guy.

[thebean]

In my experience from doing tours with room sizes between 100 people to 15,000 people is that most of the time, if the room is set up as strictly a music venue, they will have a PA that every one uses. Now if you are playing small coffee shops, bars, or any other place not strictly devoted to being a venue; thats when you're horse power really matters. But for most venues you only need to be loud enough to hear you. And before anyone says anything, I've toured on 3 different continents now and have only a hand full of times i can think of that i didnt have pa support and not one has involved North America.

But as i have observed over the years a lot more national and multinational touring bands are switching to only in-ears and as such are switching to modelers for there sounds. So when you see guys playing huge stadiums with little 15w-30w amps its not for stage volume or even for them to feel the bass/guitar. Its only there as a glorified DI.

[NWB]

Originally Posted by MontanaBassDude

Respectfully, in this case, I wonder if you're contradicting yourself? Your 67 Fender and Gklang undoubtedly sound stunning... but mic them or DI them through a 45kw PA, with a hack engineer at the mixing board, and he can turn your beautiful bass tone into a dreadful droning mess. IMIO -- In my ignorant opinion, feed your bass audio into a PA, and you've effectively castrated your "perfect tone".

If you're playing large enough stadium to require a 45k watt PA, then you are going to be at the mercy of the soundman. A "perfect tone" bass rig would be useless for covering a venue that large against a PA that big.

[makohund]

Originally Posted by NWB

If you're playing large enough stadium to require a 45k watt PA, then you are going to be at the mercy of the soundman. A "perfect tone" bass rig would be useless for covering a venue that large against a PA that big.

Conversely, if you're playing this "large enough stadium", and you tell the soundman he needs to mic your cab ... he's probably gonna do it. And he's probably gonna do a good job of it.

Because you're big enough to be playing stadiums. And he's good enough to be running sound in stadiums.

[FatherBass]

Originally Posted by modulusman

Well if you plan on doing the music thing for a long time then it makes sense to invest in a quality PA IMO. What you can bring to your next band can be the difference of whether you get the gig or the other guy.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I haven't seen a lot of bass players that had their own PA. If it's not band property the singer usually owns it. Bass and guitar players will usually buy a better bass/guitar or a bigger badder amp than a PA.

[will33]

Originally Posted by makohund

Conversely, if you're playing this "large enough stadium", and you tell the soundman he needs to mic your cab ... he's probably gonna do it. And he's probably gonna do a good job of it.

Because you're big enough to be playing stadiums. And he's good enough to be running sound in stadiums.

And likewise, if you're playing a smallish club i the Upper Midwest, or the South for that matter, and you tell somebody you need 6 individual aux sends for your personnally controlled IEM mixes, you'll be met with one of these and deemed a self-involved, scociopathic Primadonna and laughed out of the venue.

[will33]

Originally Posted by FatherBass

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I haven't seen a lot of bass players that had their own PA. If it's not band property the singer usually owns it. Bass and guitar players will usually buy a better bass/guitar or a bigger badder amp than a PA.

I'm one of those where my "other gear" expenditures usually exceeds my bass gear expenditures....unless it's something really nicw.

All 'round musician or bass player?