How can you play in a band with a guitar player with 12 12" speakers?

[Alper Yilmaz]

I am in Milano for business for a day and last night I went to Blue Note to catch a show.

It was a guitar trio with drums and electric bass. Apart from a loud FOH, the guitarist had two 100W Hughes & Kettner amps extended by two 4x12" cabinets! Both amps were on and we are talking about some serious tube guitar amplification with 12 12" drivers! The bass player had a Epi UL502 with 4x10" Epi speaker (most probably, one of the UL series) and a 1x15" with no logo on; so we are most probably talking about the UL502 operating at 4 ohms (600W).

The stage volume was more than enough to feed even the front rows in a stadium; yet the sound man was still pushing FOH to ear-piercing volume levels in a place of 500-600 m2 (~ 5000-6000 ft2) with approximately 100-150 people sitting at tables.

I could take it only for 4-5 songs and had to leave, as it was no fun for me. The musicians did not seem to be disturbed by the volume, despite the fact that the bass player kept on asking for adjustments for his monitor (I even do not see the necessity for monitors in a trio setup except for the drummer) during the whole set. As jazz musicians, we work mostly with horrible backlines in New York City (actually, most of the time with none); but I thought this was a bit over the line.

What would you think?

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By the way, the guitar player was Allan Holdsworth...

[Thunderthumbs73]

Ugg... Sorry. Good for you for leaving, insofar as saving your hearing is concerned.

[fractiouslowend]

compensating for something maybe?

[Alper Yilmaz]

You mean the bass player's asking for adjustments?

Of course, he was trying to make things work for him. But I find it almost extremely difficult to correct things at that volume, so it would be mostly too much or too little; finding the perfect balance on the monitor would be quite challenging.

Originally Posted by fractiouslowend

compensating for something maybe?

[behndy]

Originally Posted by fractiouslowend

compensating for something maybe?

lol. i think.... he meant BIG speakers.... cover up.... urrrrrr.... genital inadequacies.

[KTFunkAlive]

Wow, I would have done exactly as you did and walk right out of there.
Maybe Holdsworth is getting deaf but that's just over the top.

[JimmyM]

holy cow, no wonder he's only playing for 150 people. allan holdsworth is a great guitarist, but geez...that is way too much to bear.

[rodl2005]

Funny this (or tragic) as I thought the general rule of thumb was the BASS needed 3 or 4 x the power to equal the guitard volume.... yet I see HEAPS of 'rock' stages where the guitarists have 2 or 3 Marshall stacks & the bassist has ONE SVT & 810 :-/

I think this is NOT JUST a guitard prob.... our soundman keeps pushing the KICK & BASS levels in the club we regularly play in- so much so, that I can virtually turn my amp off- there's THAT much bass coming thru to the stage from the F.O.H. P.A. system & therefore just 'in general' the volume of our band is LOUD!!!!!!!!!
In a club where most ppl would rather have a better QUALITY rather than 'quantity' of sound.

Basically he's pushing the BASS & Drum levels so much that the lead voc's are often drowned out.

& Yes we HAVE talked to him about it..... :-/

[will33]

I say, Holdsworth is a great player but geez, if it's too loud and noisy to sound good, it's not impressive anymore to say the least....

[naturalkinds]

I would've taken off my shirt and tried to get a good pressure scrub going on with my gangly body.

[mntngrown]

Why I always take my musicians ears/filters,and do not even patronize repeat offender venues with ridiculous FOH.
Good for you saving your very important asset. My wife always goes to local clubs with the simple foam plugs one might use for sleeping or power saws and hammers. I sometimes stand outside clubs and get adequate volume and don't pay the cover or tip the band hoping they will get the message. We all want tinitus driving us nuts at night in bed huh folks!

[naturalkinds]

Tinnitus is a great point of reference for developing relative pitch. It's really not as bad as we make it out to be.

[will33]

Originally Posted by rodl2005

Funny this (or tragic) as I thought the general rule of thumb was the BASS needed 3 or 4 x the power to equal the guitard volume.... yet I see HEAPS of 'rock' stages where the guitarists have 2 or 3 Marshall stacks & the bassist has ONE SVT & 810 :-/

I think this is NOT JUST a guitard prob.... our soundman keeps pushing the KICK & BASS levels in the club we regularly play in- so much so, that I can virtually turn my amp off- there's THAT much bass coming thru to the stage from the F.O.H. P.A. system & therefore just 'in general' the volume of our band is LOUD!!!!!!!!!
In a club where most ppl would rather have a better QUALITY rather than 'quantity' of sound.

Basically he's pushing the BASS & Drum levels so much that the lead voc's are often drowned out.

& Yes we HAVE talked to him about it..... :-/

Over here actually is a guitard prop. Everything's fed through FOH. If you've got a good soundman, you're lucky. The guitar may be too forward in the mix and drown out everybody else but that's because the soundman has his slider(s) up too far, not because the guitar player has too many stacks.....You could have 4 marshall guitar stacks on each side of the stage but if only one is hooked up and mic'ed, the rest don't matter, as is usually the case. Point is whatever comes through the PA is what the audience thinks you sound like.

[rodl2005]

Originally Posted by will33

Over here actually is a guitard prop. Everything's fed through FOH. If you've got a good soundman, you're lucky. The guitar may be too forward in the mix and drown out everybody else but that's because the soundman has his slider(s) up too far, not because the guitar player has too many stacks.....You could have 4 marshall guitar stacks on each side of the stage but if only one is hooked up and mic'ed, the rest don't matter, as is usually the case. Point is whatever comes through the PA is what the audience thinks you sound like.

Oh yeah - same situation here. & I realize not all those Stacks are 'functioning'

We've -'luckily' GOT a great soundman, but on occasions he's booked up already & we've gotta use choice 2 or 3 or.... AND - thankfully- in our band, our guitarist uses a all valve 20w 2x12" combo

[KJung]

Originally Posted by KTFunkAlive

Wow, I would have done exactly as you did and walk right out of there.
Maybe Holdsworth is getting deaf but that's just over the top.

Just saw Holdsworth with that rig. Volume was actually very low (small club)... rig seems mostly for show. Ernest Tibbs was on bass using an old 410 with an Eden head... no front of house... sounded great.

Alper, sounds like a sound engineer problem, versus Allan being stupid!

[Alper Yilmaz]

Hey Ken,

Yeah, that might be the case... Somehow, Blue Note Milano is quite a big space, but at the end of the day, people are sitting down at tables mostly and the place has terrible acoustics. Any 22-watt Fender '65 would cut that gig easily with almost no support from FOH.

I would expect an experienced musician like Allan, who is into sound so much as well, would tell immediately by seeing the place. I think even his stage volume was out of control; forget about the guy behind the board who cranked up the kick drum as if it were a Metallica concert at Wembley or something!

Cheers,

Alper

Originally Posted by KJung

Just saw Holdsworth with that rig. Volume was actually very low (small club)... rig seems mostly for show. Ernest Tibbs was on bass using an old 410 with an Eden head... no front of house... sounded great.

Alper, sounds like a sound engineer problem, versus Allan being stupid!

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Alper Yilmaz

Hey Ken,

Yeah, that might be the case... Somehow, Blue Note Milano is quite a big space, but at the end of the day, people are sitting down at tables mostly and the place has terrible acoustics. Any 22-watt Fender '65 would cut that gig easily with almost no support from FOH.

I would expect an experienced musician like Allan, who is into sound so much as well, would tell immediately by seeing the place. I think even his stage volume was out of control; forget about the guy behind the board who cranked up the kick drum as if it were a Metallica concert at Wembley or something!

Cheers,

Alper

+1 The club in Detroit seats about 60 people! He did keep the volume down though (although there where still more notes than I personally knew what to do with!). I also chuckled when I saw that HUGE guitar rig. My guess is, part of it is getting some speakers up close to his ears, but that sure is an extreme way of doing that!!!!

Of course, +1 to your point that it makes very little sense based on any sort of rational thought

[onionpuzzle]

that would be great to see Holdsworth in a club with a heavy duty combo amp----and into PA if the place is big. geez....rockstardom must still be twinkling in his eyes.

Did he lug his own gear around ? probably wouldn't have that big a setup if he had to.

he is, however, a pretty freaking phenomenal guitarist, and by all means has the right to do what he wants

too-loud is really a bad way to go, though

[pnut166]

Ridiculous.

[greenboy]

It can get ridiculous even with more sophisticated guitarists. Not only do they want a tall stack - they want it in stereo! Like that makes any difference to the audience 99% of the time. Or to one's stagemates in any positive fashion.