How do I run my Avatar 2X12 full range?

[dukeisdog]

I would like to try using the cab without the tweeter, as I think I have blown the tweeter. Even at low practice volumes I am getting a distorted sound on my low D string, also on other strings, but it is most heard on the low D.

I know I can't just turn the tweeter off on these cabs, and I will lose lots of my high end which I use lots of. I haven't really used the cab in a band situation that often, and even then, it's not crazy loud. I've had it since January, and loved the sound of it before I blew the tweeter. The cab is still useable, but it really sounds bad now.

I would like to send all of the highs to my 12" speakers instead of the tweeter. Is this possible?

[billfitzmaurice]

You have to completely bypass everything on the input board and run wires directly from the jacks to the woofers.

[dukeisdog]

Is it something you'd recommend me trying myself? Or with my dad? He's fairly good with electrical stuff. If something goes wrong, is the cab going to be useless? Or can we re do it?

[craig.p]

Yes, do it yourself, just like Bill described it. It's easy. Use only the phone jacks and it's even easier. That's how I did it on my two B212s. Just disconnect the crossover wires from the phone jacks and connect the twelves to them. If you cut the wires from the crossover to the twelves and you make the cut close enough to the crossover, there should still be enough wire length to make it to the phone jacks. You can use either or both phone jacks. If you want to use both, just jumper them in parallel using a couple of short wires. Make sure you run speaker (+) to phone jack tip and speaker (-) to phone jack sleeve. Ten minutes per cab max.

Remember, any connector you use for your twelves must have everything unsoldered from it beforehand, i.e. nothing running to the crossover.

Take good notes beforehand so you can go back if you want to.

NOTE: Everything I've described applies only to the more-recent cabs, i.e. the ones with the "real" crossovers, not the earlier ones with the ersatz crossovers that didn't do such a great job at protecting tweeters from LF signals. (Thanks again to Bill F for this info.) But the idea is the same: first empty the input jacks of all connections, and connect the twelves to the jacks. The only fly in the ointment might be if the horn wires are running off one of the woofer wires, which would be one conceivable way of wiring up the old crossover. Let us know if that's how yours is.

NOTE 2: If you like highs, trust me, you won't like the results. Those twelves don't have much in the way of midrange, let alone highs. So, give some thought to this before proceeding down No Joy Road.

Hope this helps.

[shoot-r]

I'd send Dave at avatar a e-mail and see what he thinks is going on and what he'd recommend.
If it needs a new diaphragm on the horn Dave can set you up with one, tell you how to replace it, ect.
Diaphragms are not expensive and are fairly easy to install.

[craig.p]

Toward the end of my first note when I mentioned the tweeter possibly running off one of the twelves' wires in the older-style cabs, I was envisioning a first-order (ahem) "crossover" for the tweeter and running the twelves full-range, i.e. not low-passed. But that would've been only one possible way of doing it. I really don't know how they did it back then, so please take that conjecture on my part with a grain of salt. I was just thinking out loud. If you have the newer cab with the real crossover as pictured on the web site, then it's n/a to you anyway.

[dukeisdog]

Originally Posted by craig.p

Yes, do it yourself, just like Bill described it. It's easy. Use only the phone jacks and it's even easier. That's how I did it on my two B212s. Just disconnect the crossover wires from the phone jacks and connect the twelves to them. If you cut the wires from the crossover to the twelves and you make the cut close enough to the crossover, there should still be enough wire length to make it to the phone jacks. You can use either or both phone jacks. If you want to use both, just jumper them in parallel using a couple of short wires. Make sure you run speaker (+) to phone jack tip and speaker (-) to phone jack sleeve. Ten minutes per cab max.

Remember, any connector you use for your twelves must have everything unsoldered from it beforehand, i.e. nothing running to the crossover.

Take good notes beforehand so you can go back if you want to.

NOTE: Everything I've described applies only to the more-recent cabs, i.e. the ones with the "real" crossovers, not the earlier ones with the ersatz crossovers that didn't do such a great job at protecting tweeters from LF signals. (Thanks again to Bill F for this info.) But the idea is the same: first empty the input jacks of all connections, and connect the twelves to the jacks. The only fly in the ointment might be if the horn wires are running off one of the woofer wires, which would be one conceivable way of wiring up the old crossover. Let us know if that's how yours is.

NOTE 2: If you like highs, trust me, you won't like the results. Those twelves don't have much in the way of midrange, let alone highs. So, give some thought to this before proceeding down No Joy Road.

Hope this helps.

Yes, your post has helped a lot. I don't think I'm going to go through with it, as you say I wont like the results. I understand that, though I may try it anyway to see how I like it. I've been thinking about adding overdrive into my tone, but know I wont like the results with the tweeter on.

The avatar is my first cab, also first cab with a tweeter, and as much as I like the high end, I'm thinking the next cab I buy will be tweeterless. I'm just shocked that the tweeter can be dead already after only getting the cab in January. I've used it tons, probably about an hour at least a day, but usually only at practice volumes. Would maybe trying a better quality tweeter be a smart idea before buying a tweeterless cab?

I've been thinking about ordering an Emperor 215, but have also been interested in a 412 avatar stack. If the tweeters on these cabs are just not good quality, maybe I'll go the Emperor route.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by dukeisdog

If the tweeters on these cabs are just not good quality

That tweeter model is used in many cabs without issue. The problem is that the slope of the crossover is insufficient to protect them.
Many players find that tweeters and electric bass aren't the best combination, and that midrange drivers work much better. There are few cabs available with midranges, but they're something to look for in your next cab.

[dukeisdog]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

The tweeters are used in many cabs without issue. The problem is that the slope of the crossover is insufficient to protect them.
Most players find that tweeters and electric bass aren't the best combination, and that midrange drivers work much better. There are few cabs available with midranges, but they're something to look for in your next cab.

So theres really not much I can do about the tweeter then? I'm just worried about replacing it with the same tweeter, and blowing it again.

Like I said, I've used the cab basically every day since the start of January, but only at practice volumes. It's been to band practice maybe 10 times, and has seen 1 show, but I haven't used it in a band situation that much as I'm drumming in my band now. I'm gonna keep playing bass, and wanna join another band, but I need my gear to be working and sounding good for that to happen.

[craig.p]

LOL, you read my mind, Duke. I was actually thinking of upgrading my cabs by pulling the tweeters and replacing them with high-power midranges, and then replacing the crossover with one that crosses over at (more or less) 800 Hz. The problem is finding the time. I don't even know if there's enough real estate on the baffle board.

A 412 Avatar stack kills. Trust me. You ought to need a license from ATF to run one. If you replace the blown diaphragm in the one you have, and then buy a second cab, then you'll be hitting each tweeter with only half the power you're hitting the single tweeter with today, and that might be enough to get you by long term.

There. I've just given you the ammo you need to justify the new cab purchase to your girlfriend this close to Christmas.

[dukeisdog]

Originally Posted by craig.p

LOL, you read my mind, Duke. I was actually thinking of upgrading my cabs by pulling the tweeters and replacing them with high-power midranges, and then replacing the crossover with one that crosses over at (more or less) 800 Hz. The problem is finding the time. I don't even know if there's enough real estate on the baffle board.

A 412 Avatar stack kills. Trust me. You ought to need a license from ATF to run one. If you replace the blown diaphragm in the one you have, and then buy a second cab, then you'll be hitting each tweeter with only half the power you're hitting the single tweeter with today, and that might be enough to get you by long term.

There. I've just given you the ammo you need to justify the new cab purchase to your girlfriend this close to Christmas.

Haha, this may also be the route I will go. I'm going to contact Dave tonight or tomorrow, and see what he thinks. Does anyone use overdrive with their Avatars? I just don't want the horns to sound really bad when driven with a VT pedal or something. I don't mean a lot of overdrive, just to add some grit to my tone.

[craig.p]

I agree 100% with Bill on the midrange-vs-tweeter point but I try not to dwell on the midrange-vs-tweeter thing too long because I always find my brain about to explode when I do.

If you're careful with you how you use your bass control, and you're careful with how loud you run them, you may be better served by a pair of Carvin LS1503 PA cabs. I'm just not sure how it'd be best to stack them -- probably one upside-down on the bottom one right-side up so you have both midranges off the floor. Maybe even a single LS1523 if you can handle the size and weight. There are also BG-specific cabs that come with midranges, and a few minutes with Google or Bing should be able to locate them. Just make sure the builder is using either a separate box for the midranges OR he's using midranges with closed backs.

Most players I know who like a full tonal range, like you do, and have been trying to get that out of tweetered cabs, have a heart attack when they hear a cab with a separate midrange cone or two. "I've been missing this all these years?!?" is how it usually goes.

[craig.p]

On the overdrive thing -- that's what may have done it. Lots of harmonic content at high amperage sent to an itsy-bitsy tweeter, and you get "meltage."

[dukeisdog]

I am also gonna take a closer look at those Carvins. I'm not ready to put any cash into anything just yet, I'm just trying to look at what some of my options are, you know?

Also, I have a Zoom B1 multi effects pedal, and I have tried using it with my cab and head, but haven't really gotten to like it. I've only used it by myself, so again, not at high volumes. My practice volume is pretty loud, but not nearly as loud as a band. Is it still possible that the overdrive may have blown the tweeter?

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by dukeisdog

Is it still possible that the overdrive may have blown the tweeter?

It is. An over driven signal can have ten times the high frequency power as a clean signal. That's one reason why guitar amps never use tweeters. The other is that high distortion levels sound like ass through tweeters, so if that's your style you don't want them.

[craig.p]

Yep, it's still possible the overdrive did it.

I think you need a cab (or cabs) that devote far more "cone area" to the midrange.

There are other options, too, Duke. For example, you could bypass the B212's crossover and tweeter, then add your own crossover and small midrange cab to handle the harmonics generated by the overdrive. You could get one of Avatar's G110 cabs, mount an 800 Hz passive crossover inside that cab, run your amp to that crossover, then send the lows from the crossover to the two twelves in the B212 and the highs to the ten in the G110. It's just one of many options other than a bass cab with a midrange cone, or a PA cab. It would allow you to hang on to your existing B212. The trick would be finding a passive crossover board with sufficient power-handling capacity. I think I've seen them available at 500-800 Hz with a power handling of around 200-300 watts. Bi-amping is another alternative, using the same two cabs; you'd have to use your existing amp's effects loop, plus you'd need a small(ish) power amp for the midrange, maybe 100 watts. Like I said, lots of options.

[craig.p]

Whoops... Forgot, you'd also need the active crossover itself if you go the biamp route.

[shoot-r]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

The problem is that the slope of the crossover is insufficient to protect them.

Bill,
Would you know if this is a problem that Dave at Avatar has resolved in the past year?
In the past I've popped several light bulbs and horn diaphragms from Amp*g and Ed*n cabs but since going to the Avatar 210 cabinets around 8 months ago, I've not had a single problem.

[Ian Perge]

Originally Posted by dukeisdog

Does anyone use overdrive with their Avatars? I just don't want the horns to sound really bad when driven with a VT pedal or something. I don't mean a lot of overdrive, just to add some grit to my tone.

I have a Avatar 2x10"/2x12" Stack [i](and plan of getting many more - I'm thinking one of every model *plus* an extra SB112 1x12" so I can have a 2x12" "Vertical Micro Stack" for small purposes - basically so I can have the option of configuring w/ almost every combination of cabinet, i.e my 2x10/2x12, a 4x10/2x12, single 4x10 or 2x12, the multiple 1x12 "Stack", a single 1x12 as a miked cabinet for recording purposes, etc... yes, I love Dave and his crew's work *that* much! ) and I run all manor of Overdrives & Distortions.

However, my unusual setup uses an SWR Mini Mo' Preamp, which has Internal Effects and a multitude if methods to send your signal, one of which is the post-EQ & post-effects "Mo' Out", so I can run that to one side of a Bridged Mono power amp and to the 2x10" which I leave the tweeter completely off while sending either a pre-or-post-EQ but pre-effects signal to the other side of my power amp and 2x12" for a "Clean/Effected" setup. This gives me the ability to send a post EQ/pre-effects Out to the "Clean" 2x12 with the tweeter dialed in to give me a fair amount of highs, while cutting the tweeter on the "Effects" 2x10 so it doesn't interfere with gain-based and other effects (I've noticed it's also cleaner with Filters as well).

I second giving Dave a call - he's always be absolutely helpful with my questions when setting up my Clean/Effected Rig and with other questions & calls (mainly related to replacing the Grills - the thing I like least about Avatars visually are the stock grills, so I'll likely be getting some Mesa-style clearcoated Natural Brushed Metal grills from Reliable Hardware) so perhaps he can give you a hand with yours.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by shoot-r

Bill,
Would you know if this is a problem that Dave at Avatar has resolved in the past year?
In the past I've popped several light bulbs and horn diaphragms from Amp*g and Ed*n cabs but since going to the Avatar 210 cabinets around 8 months ago, I've not had a single problem.

AFAIK Avatar still uses a 2nd order high pass filter. In pro applications 3rd order is considered the usual minimum, with 4th order preferred. With a 4th order filter tweeter protection is literally over 1,000% better than a second order filter.