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06-09-2011, 10:11 AM
| | | | How loud is twice as loud
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"It takes X-dB or Y-watts to sound twice as loud". But what does 'twice as loud' SOUND like? I can tell louder from quieter (yes, it's a skill), but I don't know how to judge when something is twice as loud. Seriously, how do you do that? |
06-09-2011, 10:57 AM
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Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design | | Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: New Hampshire | | Quote:
Originally Posted by Beany  "It takes X-dB or Y-watts to sound twice as loud". But what does 'twice as loud' SOUND like? | 10dB. Referenced to watts that's ten times the power. |
06-09-2011, 11:18 AM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: USA | | | |
06-09-2011, 03:15 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Bezerkely, CA | | Just want to say that IMO this is an excellent question. I *used* to think the answer would be obvious. Then I started reading TB. For all I know, scientifically or whatever, a yell is only twice as loud as a whisper.
Hope that wiki helped you b/c I remain clueless.
--Bomb 
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06-09-2011, 06:56 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: New Zealand | | | If it sounds twice as good. If you're into that school of thought. Up to the point I need earplugs I tend to agree.
According to Bill 6dB is what I get just from adding another cab to make 4 ohm load, having the volume knob in the same position. It sounds more than twice as good to me, partly from the elevation of the 2nd cabinet and partly the extra boomf available. Actually, I don't turn it up as far with two cabs.
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06-09-2011, 07:03 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: New Zealand | | | iirc you can reference twice as loud against the distance it takes to attenuate to inaudible, all other things being equal. There's probably some square roots or logarithms hiding in the distance calculation too, but it should be closer to a linear scale than the lovely dB.
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06-09-2011, 07:32 PM
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Maker of HPF-Pre upright bass preamp | | Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Madison WI | | | 10 dB seems to ring a Bel. |
06-09-2011, 07:35 PM
|  | keepin' the beat since the 60's | | Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Studio City, SoCal, USA | | | To be 3dB (twice as loud) to your ears, it takes 10 x the amplifier power (10 dB).
Why10 x? An explanation is that the audio signal (1 dimensional) from the amp and speaker is feeding essentially all the air in the world - a 3-dimensional space - so the power required is a cube of the signal power, (3 x 3dB) plus a little loss = 10x.
For those of you that are not familiar with the logarithmic dB scale - 3dB = 2x, 6dB = 4x and 10 db = 10X. Also - 3dB is generally recognized as the minimum you can detect. Twice as loud is not really a huge difference!
I am sure that there are better and more detailed explanations but this is good enough for me.
By the way - this relates to VOLUME. In recording and broadcast, LOUDNESS refers to the ratio of the peak level of a signal compared to the average level of the signal. This is how compressors work and why the commercials on TV are so LOUD. The peak level of the commercial has not changed (it can't by law) but the average can be increased, pumping up the details. This = loudness.
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Last edited by Bassamatic : 06-09-2011 at 07:59 PM.
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06-09-2011, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Adam Bomb Hope that wiki helped you b/c I remain clueless. | Yes. It helped confirm my suspicion that it's VERY subjective. |
06-09-2011, 07:55 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: May 2006 Location: austin,tx | | | I think you're confusing apparent volume with the power required to make it. 3db is considered a small but noticable change in volume....it takes 2x power to do that. 10db is considered twice as loud....takes 10x power to do that. ie: 100 watts is twice as loud as 10watts. 1000 is twice as loud as 100. 200 watts is only slightly louder than 100 all else being equal.
Do a search and you'll find a decibel scale for a whisper...conversation...power tools...jet taking off etc. |
06-09-2011, 08:00 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: May 2006 Location: austin,tx | | | There's also the fletcher munson curve. The human ear is more sensitive to middlerange frequencies than it is highs and lows. That's why in the old days people could "shout it from the mountain top" and be heard a long ways away. Our voices all fall somewhere in the midrange. |
06-09-2011, 08:02 PM
| | keepin' the beat since the 60's | | Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Studio City, SoCal, USA | | | It is really NOT subjective. With the proper equipment it can be measured and specified and created very exactly. This is done every day in the planning of commercial sound systems in everything from airplanes to arenas.
the Fletcher-Munson curve relates to sensitivity vs. frequency. Humans are more sensitive to the mids because that is where voice is, that has developed as most important to our survival. There can be a HUGE difference from the mids to the ends, and is one of the reasons that our amps and speakers are so much larger than the guitarist's.
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Last edited by Bassamatic : 06-09-2011 at 08:10 PM.
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06-09-2011, 08:16 PM
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Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design | | Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: New Hampshire | | Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio S Humans are more sensitive to the mids because that is where voice is, that has developed as most important to our survival. . | Ture, but it's more of a chicken/egg situation. Our hearing sensitivity is based on the size of our heads, which determines the distance between our ears and diameter of our eardrums. Our vocal ranges evolved to work best within those parameters, not the other way around, as our hearing pre-dated speech by a few million years. |
06-09-2011, 08:22 PM
| | keepin' the beat since the 60's | | Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Studio City, SoCal, USA | | | Good Points, Bill. Still - it's the mids that are most critical for us, yes?
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06-09-2011, 09:15 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Palm Coast, Florida | | Quote:
Originally Posted by Beany Yes. It helped confirm my suspicion that it's VERY subjective. |
NO.........it is NOT subjective at all.
Go and buy a db meter.
A +10db increase in the measurement will be twice as loud.
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06-09-2011, 09:43 PM
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Maker of HPF-Pre upright bass preamp | | Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Madison WI | | | THIS LOUD |
06-09-2011, 09:55 PM
|  | Registered User | | Join Date: May 2007 Location: New Zealand | | | I thought +6dBm was twice as loud, and 10x Watts was twice as loud ??
(that's what i have been led to believe in my every day Electrical Engineering & Telecommuncations job).
If you have a 100 Watt bass amp and you want to be twice as loud, you need a 1000 Watt amp (and speakers to match).
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06-09-2011, 10:45 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Jax FL USA | | Quote: |
Humans are more sensitive to the mids because that is where voice is
| No... the inverse of the evolved Fletcher Munson curve [the equal loudness curve] is not human speech - it is the wail of an infant for the tit... talking grown ups are not near as annoying as wailing babies per acoustic watt... unless you read TalkMuch forums in which case you can experience a distinction without a difference between crying babies and the blather of ostensible adults playing smartest guy in the room sans tit.
wah wah wah. 
Last edited by Foz : 06-09-2011 at 10:58 PM.
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06-10-2011, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Gio S It is really NOT subjective. With the proper equipment it can be measured and specified and created very exactly. This is done every day in the planning of commercial sound systems in everything from airplanes to arenas.
the Fletcher-Munson curve relates to sensitivity vs. frequency. Humans are more sensitive to the mids because that is where voice is, that has developed as most important to our survival. There can be a HUGE difference from the mids to the ends, and is one of the reasons that our amps and speakers are so much larger than the guitarist's. | I thought it was because we had some parts inadequacies. Wait. Our gear is so much larger. Oh yeah!! |
06-10-2011, 05:51 AM
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Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design | | Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: New Hampshire | | Quote:
Originally Posted by gumtownbassman I thought +6dBm was twice as loud, and 10x Watts was twice as loud ??
(that's what i have been led to believe in my every day Electrical Engineering & Telecommuncations job). | +6dB is 4x watts. 10x watts is +10dB. Might want to re-check your source. | | Thread Tools | Search this Thread | | | | 
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