How many watts do I really need?

[One Drop]

Well, I am assuming the drummer is not overpowering the room to begin with. If that is really the case and he can't get lighter sticks or ease up, then all bets are off and I wouldn't get on stage with him to begin with, and there is no solution other than to fire him.

These days, only the crappiest PAs can't let the vocals be heard over an unamplified gorilla on a loud kit, so I guess in this extreme scenario, e.g tiny PA, small room, and extremely loud drummer, then you are entirely correct that playing to the level of the drummer is no solution. So what is, then, other than getting rid of said drummer? No SR solution seems possible to me in this case, so why even mention it?

So, to be clearer, in most situations a band needs to set their level as low as possible to balance monitoring on stage so everyone can hear themselves well enough to play together properly, and since the drums cannot be turned down like amps can, the level of the drums set the stage levels in general. This excludes IEM arrangements, etc.

SHEESH!

[tbird36go]

I had the same dilemma when I was a kid & had my first band. I had a 150 watt peavey bass amp with a 15" speaker. The more we played out & the bigger the shows got the louder I had to be so I ended up getting an Ampeg V4b, 100 watts tube & a 410HLF cab. Again in the next months shows got even bigger & we were going on tour I switched to an Ampeg SVT classic 300 watts & an 810 cab. 23 years later I've played every bas rig under the sun in some real big venues. I'm back to the Ampeg 810E cab & running a vintage 1989 Ampeg SVT II non pro. You wana cover all your bases & a high power multi use amp like the Ampeg SVT 4Pro will cover any situation you could ever come across for the rest of your life. & its the most versitile bass amp ever made. There isnt a bass cab in the world (I know of) the 4Pro cant handle. Just get a good 410 cab & your gold! Remember bands change & you may join another band later with better musicians that have pro gear. Never get the minimum you will just regret it later as you become a better more seasoned musician. You can get a used 4Pro at GC for around $600 It's my No1 got to amp for Rock, Metal, Indie, jazz, etc.

[georgestrings]

Originally Posted by One Drop

Well, I am assuming the drummer is not overpowering the room to begin with. If that is really the case and he can't get lighter sticks or ease up, then all bets are off and I wouldn't get on stage with him to begin with, and there is no solution other than to fire him.

These days, only the crappiest PAs can't let the vocals be heard over an unamplified gorilla on a loud kit, so I guess in this extreme scenario, e.g tiny PA, small room, and extremely loud drummer, then you are entirely correct that playing to the level of the drummer is no solution. So what is, then, other than getting rid of said drummer? No SR solution seems possible to me in this case, so why even mention it?

So, to be clearer, in most situations a band needs to set their level as low as possible to balance monitoring on stage so everyone can hear themselves well enough to play together properly, and since the drums cannot be turned down like amps can, the level of the drums set the stage levels in general. This excludes IEM arrangements, etc.

SHEESH!

I couldn't have said it better...


- georgestrings

[makohund]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

The bass rig carries the room in these situations but lacks. If a little FOH bass is added it turns to mud.

So instead of just adding "FOH bass that turns to mud", high pass it and reinforce his freqs above... I dunno, 150 or 200Hz or whatever gets you above that mud, however the desk/gear allows you to get there. If it's a continual problem the desks don't have the flexibility to solve, get an outboard piece that gives you what you need. (Maybe something like this?)

Edit: Or treat yourself to one of these and bring it to your FOH gigs, and talk them into using it.

If what they need to keep up with the drummer on stage is putting out enough lows to carry the room, but lacks definition, just add the definition. Get those mids/highs in the mains and see if that helps out a little. Maybe talk 'em into tweaking their EQ in a manner that helps the room, but still gives them what they need onstage. Careful arrangment/aiming of all cabs may help, too.

You may be right that a given drummer may be too loud for a given room. The only way to deal with it is to get them to back off, or put them behind a shield, or fire them. But there ain't no firing the drummer right there at soundcheck (or middle of the first song), so you just gotta do what you gotta do.

What you can't do is insist any musician on stage turn down so far that they can't hear themselves along with the drums. That's nuts, and asking for a crappy performance. Just trading one problem for another.

[jungleheat]

300-500w (tube or solid state, contrary to public belief, it doesn't really matter much) of amp power, and a good quality 4x10, 2x15 or equivalent will hold you down for about 90% of situations you're likely to find yourself in. And by the time you get to the other 10%, you should know enough about amps that you won't need someone's help on the internet to figure out what you need. The cab/s (together) should be rated about equal or higher than what your amp can put out. So for example a 400w head and 2 300w single 15s.

[JHAz]

Every time I see this thread title, I want to type

ALL YOUR WATTS ARE BELONG TO US.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[B-string]

Watt was the question?

[George Mann]

One simple rule to go by is that guitar amps are typically 1.5X as loud as bass amps per watt (all else being equal).

If your guitarist has a 30-watt 212, you will need 150-watts, preferably into a 410. A 60-watt 412, then a 300-watt 810, ect.

It takes me a minimum of 2000-watts into four 810's to keep up with a full Marshall stack (400-watt 812) in an outdoor setting.

[RBX4]

Originally Posted by George Mann

One simple rule to go by is that guitar amps are typically 1.5X as loud as bass amps per watt (all else being equal).

If your guitarist has a 30-watt 212, you will need 150-watts, preferably into a 410. A 60-watt 412, then a 300-watt 810, ect.

It takes me a minimum of 2000-watts into four 810's to keep up with a full Marshall stack (400-watt 812) in an outdoor setting.

That's a lot of money!

[jungleheat]

Originally Posted by George Mann

One simple rule to go by is that guitar amps are typically 1.5X as loud as bass amps per watt (all else being equal).

If your guitarist has a 30-watt 212, you will need 150-watts, preferably into a 410. A 60-watt 412, then a 300-watt 810, ect.

It takes me a minimum of 2000-watts into four 810's to keep up with a full Marshall stack (400-watt 812) in an outdoor setting.

None of this is correct, except the middle bit which isn't too far off.. Beyond that it doesn't even make sense within itself. If guitar is "1.5x" louder, why do you need 150w to match 30 watts? That's 5 times as much, instead of 50% more as the 1.5x factor would indicate.

[sratas]

I don't know the exact equation here...but I know that sometimes, outdoor, I have used a Victoria 5112 amp (I play also guitar) 5 (five) watt 1 x 12 tube amp, driven to power stage overdrive and I have buried a 500 watt into 2 x12 bass system, buried...
on the other side of my life, in a big big room, I played with a 550 watts bass amp into two efficient 2 x 10 cabs and I have been buried by a 30 watts 1 x12 guitar amp not even close to "all controls to 10"...
For sure, guitar has much more "loudness" per watt than any bass setup...the 1,5 x rule it's not even near to reality, especially in those genres were it is suppose to have the classical wall of guitars screaming.
Those useless rules do not take into account the most important thing, THE SPEAKERS.
try to double the output power of your bass amp into a certain cab, and then try to put that same wattage into a bigger and more efficient cab or multiple cabs. hear for yourself.

If you play with un unfair guitar player who cranks his 100 watt all tube amp into two 4 x12, you will always have troubles hearing yourself using a clean bass amp.
When all players in a band consider the overall performance of the band itself as the absolute priority, you have a happy night...and that's all.
In my band, that sounds quite bass oriented to be honest, I usually play with only a little fraction of power on disposal, and everyone hears better, and no ringing ears, even after a gig (onstage volume follows the same rules)

[BawanaRik]

I was always under the impression that a 3 dB boost in power was twice the power. http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-db.htm

You sound young. The Back is still strong in this one. Some of the more efficient cabs tend to be a little bit heavy

Some cabs that give a lot of sound per given power are the Eden D410XLT the Goliath II and the best of all is a pre Fender Goliath Senior. Some of the custom cabs are good at this also. Putting 300 watts into one of these cabs, especially the Goliath Senior will give you a lot more volume than putting a 1000 watts into a dog cabinet.

I've seen many player get their point across with an RB400 and a 410 cab.

That being said do you really want to play loud? Do you want to that guy at the old folks home who is always going What?

Both SWR and Eden made perfectly good 210 combos. The RedHead and the Metro respectively. If you are playing any louder than these amps go you are playing TOO loud.

While it may be fun to feel the wind generated from a killer stack it isn't fun going deaf.

[BawanaRik]

The Victoria is a cool amp, huh? Kinda like a Champ with the 12" speaker it should have had.

Guitar amps work in the mid range. Where your hearing works the best. When setting up talk to the sound guy about volume. If your guitar amp over powers his PA not only will he hate you but the band won't sound as good or as balanced. Watch the look on the sound guys face when one some rolls in a Marshall Stack. Not a happy face.

You seem to be Tone Connoisseur. Have you tried a UniValve? For rolling tubes there's not much better. Low power switch puts you at 4 to 7 watts and there's a built in power break.

You'd be surprised at how loud one watt is.

Originally Posted by sratas

I don't know the exact equation here...but I know that sometimes, outdoor, I have used a Victoria 5112 amp (I play also guitar) 5 (five) watt 1 x 12 tube amp, driven to power stage overdrive and I have buried a 500 watt into 2 x12 bass system, buried...
on the other side of my life, in a big big room, I played with a 550 watts bass amp into two efficient 2 x 10 cabs and I have been buried by a 30 watts 1 x12 guitar amp not even close to "all controls to 10"...
For sure, guitar has much more "loudness" per watt than any bass setup...the 1,5 x rule it's not even near to reality, especially in those genres were it is suppose to have the classical wall of guitars screaming.
Those useless rules do not take into account the most important thing, THE SPEAKERS.
try to double the output power of your bass amp into a certain cab, and then try to put that same wattage into a bigger and more efficient cab or multiple cabs. hear for yourself.

If you play with un unfair guitar player who cranks his 100 watt all tube amp into two 4 x12, you will always have troubles hearing yourself using a clean bass amp.
When all players in a band consider the overall performance of the band itself as the absolute priority, you have a happy night...and that's all.
In my band, that sounds quite bass oriented to be honest, I usually play with only a little fraction of power on disposal, and everyone hears better, and no ringing ears, even after a gig (onstage volume follows the same rules)

[majortoby]

I have to go ahead an say that watts are a smaller part of the equation than you may think. I have an old peavey that outputs 45-90watts depending on how distorted I wanna be. Now, it's not marcus miller clean, and I sure won't be playing reggae dub bass over two drummers. But it's got all the firepower I need for jamming with friends. It's gotten my ears ringing several times, and it toured the southeast with a reasonably loud punk rock drummer. I know it's all anecdote, but I thought I'd share. Also, if you're on a budget, learn to embrace your mids. It's way cheaper and easier to cut through with solid mids than to smash the mix with sub bass and clanky treble. Just imo

[sratas]

Originally Posted by BawanaRik

The Victoria is a cool amp, huh? Kinda like a Champ with the 12" speaker it should have had.

Guitar amps work in the mid range. Where your hearing works the best. When setting up talk to the sound guy about volume. If your guitar amp over powers his PA not only will he hate you but the band won't sound as good or as balanced. Watch the look on the sound guys face when one some rolls in a Marshall Stack. Not a happy face.

You seem to be Tone Connoisseur. Have you tried a UniValve? For rolling tubes there's not much better. Low power switch puts you at 4 to 7 watts and there's a built in power break.

You'd be surprised at how loud one watt is.

Exact, Champ 5F1 circuit and 1 x 12 Eminence ceramic driver. Not loud if you want clean tones, but crank it and there you go. It's midrange detail, bump and complexity make it feel very very loud (human perception).
Univalve? not tried...in the past years I'm busy exclusively as a bass player.
1 watt can be loud, for sure. Express it in the 1000 Hz range, throw it into a super efficient speaker and you will be surprised with your ears ringing after a "late night" practice in a little room...

[BawanaRik]

The sound thing is done in logarithms. A Bel is a log in base 20 as I recall. A dB is one tenth of a Bel.

As far as loudness it's like a sports car. It won't go any faster, or in this case, get any louder than the person who is in control of it allows it to.

Originally Posted by jungleheat

None of this is correct, except the middle bit which isn't too far off.. Beyond that it doesn't even make sense within itself. If guitar is "1.5x" louder, why do you need 150w to match 30 watts? That's 5 times as much, instead of 50% more as the 1.5x factor would indicate.

[sratas]

Originally Posted by BawanaRik

The sound thing is done in logarithms. A Bel is a log in base 20 as I recall. A dB is one tenth of a Bel.

As far as loudness it's like a sports car. It won't go any faster, or in this case, get any louder than the person who is in control of it allows it to.

you are right, the dB scale is not linear, logarithmic.
And this leads to many misconceptions. But this is for another thread...

[DaveyM69]

Subbing to this thread so I can find it at our upcoming 'band meeting' where stage volume is almost certainly to be discussed.

It's always been a minor issue but has got more serious recently, since we got a new drummer. He doesn't hit them hard but his kit is certainly LOUD. The kit sounds great, but this is a 10 piece band and by the time the keys, guitar and I (bass) have come up to a level to blend well on stage, the vocal monitors are at the point of feedback and they are complaining that they can't hear and occaisionally ears are ringing by the end of the gig. This is purely on stage volume, not out front which our PA is more than capable of handling.

I use a GK MB210 + 210 MBE and I have plenty of power available - still some to spare even in this scenario to answer the OP (that's 500W solid state into 4x10).

So the volume on stage can definitely set by the drummer. I'm sure if his kit was quieter and I played at the level I have to at the moment then he would hit harder to match or ask for more in his monitor/fill in which case it would be me setting the level - but I would guess most often the drums are the starting point of on stage volume happiness or problems.

My solution (to be tested at the next gig) has been to change both my bass and strings. I was playing a passive with flats - great deep tone, perfect for our music (Soul). I have bought an active that is more focused naturally on this instrument to slightly higher mids and I'm keeping rounds on it, for now at least. Now this may not suit the music so well, but hopefully the natural shift in focus frequencies I am trying (which I couldn't achieve before through amp EQ and bass tone) will find me a range where I can 'hear' better and keep my volume down, which will hopefully aid everyone and be a starting point for them to do the same. A long shot, but worth a try...

[AuntieBeeb]

On drummers:

They can be made to play quieter. My blues trio went through a phase where we were deafeningly loud. We weren't quite sure why. In the end, we realised it was that, for some reason, our drummer had been getting progressively louder.

Eventually we decided we needed to do something about it - in the rehearsal room, we basically went back to a level where we could play without earplugs. We've got a bit louder again since then, but it's a much more sensible volume. Good drummers can play quieter if you ask them to!

[two fingers]

Originally Posted by georgestrings

You're joking, right???


- georgestrings

Absolutely not. My Magnavox era V4 with an 8-10 cab will peel the skin from your face. I have used it outdoors with no PA.