How much power needed for this?

nurnay · #1 09-23-2010, 10:55 AM

Hello,

There's a Craigslist ad for the two cabs listed below. I have a Genz Benz GBE400, is it enough to satisfactorily power these two together?

SWR Goliath III (4x10, 8 ohm)
SWR Big Ben (18", also 8 ohm)

The Goliath is rated at 800w, and the Big Ben is rated at 400w. If I ran through both, the GB ampo would be pushing 330w.

TIA

Mike

nurnay · #2 09-23-2010, 02:05 PM

Anyone? I want to look at it tomorrow, but the guy is a ways away from me and would rather skip the trip if my amp is underpowered.

Thanks!

anonymous02282011 · #3 09-23-2010, 02:07 PM

Can't comment on tone as I don't know those amps and cabs, but you certainly won't blow anything up.

nurnay · #4 09-23-2010, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adbass

Can't comment on tone as I don't know those amps and cabs, but you certainly won't blow anything up.

Well, I know that.

I just want to know if it's enough to reasonably power those two.

Bluesbob · #5 09-23-2010, 02:37 PM

It could sound good, but you won't be getting all that you can from the Golly III. A two-channel amp, or two separate amps would be better suited to this, so you can give the Goliath its' due, and still power the Big Ben, which will break up and sound terrible with the same power as the Goliath needs. Still, it might sound good, especially if your standing in front of it. But the low frequencies won't carry very far unless the room is small. You would probably get more usable volume with just the Goliath. So the real question you need to answer is how loud do you need to be?
I played guitar with a band in which the bass player was using a Goliath III and my own Big Ben (he wanted to try it), powered by an Ampeg SVT-4. He tried to bridge but to get anything out of the Goliath he needed to turn up so high that the Big Ben would bottom out. When he used both amplifiers separately he was able to get a good sound that sometimes went so deep it was scary. I'm not sure those lows scared anybody but me and the drummer, but people were up and dancing. The drummer was a pretty hard hitter with nothing through the PA except the vocals. I was using a Deluxe Reverb, so you can get an idea of the volume level we were at.
Don't know if this helps any.

nurnay · #6 09-23-2010, 02:47 PM

Thanks, Bluesbob, exactly what I need to know. I have a WorkingPro 15 combo that I use for most gigs, but I like to have a bigger rig for larger rooms or outdoor gigs. Currently I have a cheaper Behringer 4x10 with the GBE 400 that gets plenty loud, I'm just not real impressed with the cabinet.

I only have this one amp, so running two into those isn't an option. There's another guy who is selling a Goliath III closer to me, so maybe I'll check that one out instead. He's also selling a Workingpro 700 amp that I might look at and play with, but I think my GBE 400 will do just fine for that cab. We'll try them both and see!

BassmanPaul · #7 09-23-2010, 02:47 PM

Just as a comment, the 18 will never be able to keep up with the 4x10. Whether the pair will give you enough depends on your particular circumstances as Bluesbob posted.

Paul

nurnay · #8 09-23-2010, 02:58 PM

On another note, could I run my WorkingPro 15 combo out to my GBE 400, then into the 4x10 to use them all as one? I think the combo is 4 ohm and the 4x10 is 8 ohm. How would that work?

BassmanPaul · #9 09-23-2010, 04:25 PM

If you are talking about using the combo speaker in parallel with the 4x10 that would be even worse than the 18.

Paul

nurnay · #10 09-23-2010, 04:29 PM

Sorry, I have no idea. I was wondering if it was possible to run the effects send out to my GBE 400 on to the 4x10. I'm a novice at this stuff, so I really don't know if that would work, or of it would sound awful (as you said).

BassmanPaul · #11 09-23-2010, 04:36 PM

There is nothing stopping you doing as you suggest. How you balance the two amps would be by trial and error.

Paul

lbwdog · #12 09-23-2010, 04:41 PM

I can tell you this. The G III seems to be pretty efficient and delivers plenty of sound. Some say it's mid scooped, but I have no trouble finding good tone and volume with my G-K 800RB, 700RB II, or LittleMark II.

Bluesbob · #13 09-24-2010, 06:31 AM

The Goliath III is a very loud, good-sounding 4X10 cube. If it wasn't so heavy I'd probably still be using mine (pre-Fender gray-grill). But if you split 330 watts two ways (165 per cab), while that may be enough for the Big Ben, it isn't going to drive the 4X10 the way it needs to be driven. I used to power my Golly III with an Eden WT400, which puts out around 240 watts at 8 ohms, and it was plenty loud enough for small-to-medium size rooms. But it can use more power to really "get it up".
So my advice is - forget the 1X18, sell the Behringer, and get the Goliath. Maybe look for a 4-ohm model, which will pull more power from your amp. The 1X18 concept is from a different era, I think, and I also think it needs to be powered separately. In your case it would just be in the way, draining power from the more efficient (louder w/ same input) Goliath. And the Goliath will put out more than enough low bass. Eventually you'll want a more powerful amp, but that can wait for a little while.
As far as using the WM 15, I guess you could do that, IF you think it's necessary after listening carefully. Plug into the GBE 400, connect the 4X10 and run the effects send (or tuner out) to the combo amp. I'm not sure if the effects send will work on the Genz, but if it does that will give you some options, such as controlling the entire rig from one pre-amp (in this case the GBE 400).
Mainly though, you have to listen - for phasing issues among other things, where the two dissimilar cabs (the 1X15 in the combo and the 4X10) may cancel certain frequencies out, while making others louder. Sometimes it's nice to set the drummer up with his own bass monitor (which he can control with the master volume on the WM15), while you can stand in front of your amp and not be on top of him/her.
Good luck!

nurnay · #14 09-24-2010, 09:48 AM

Thanks, everyone. I'm going to go with the Goliath, and while I'm there, compare his WorkingPro 700 amp to my GBE 400.

agedhorse · #15 09-24-2010, 09:56 AM

You should really give it a try to see how it works for you. 300+ watts may be enough power to get you to where you need volume-wise and there's nothing wrong with having more speaker potential than you need if what you have gets you to where you need to be.

babebambi · #16 09-24-2010, 12:16 PM

Running different cabs in full range on the same head is not advisable. Usually because of phase issue, and imbalance power handling.

Both the Goliath and the BigBen are pretty efficient IMO. So 400 watt into both these cabs would be loud enough for a lot of occasion. If you run the same head with less speakers, it will only be quieter.

The BigBen isn't inefficient compare to the Goliath, it just doesn't handle as much power so max SPL is lower. Goliath is close to 95 lb. when the BigBen is only 70 lb. The BigBen has better mid range dispersion than the Goliath; but it lacks the treble from the tweeter. The BigBen also has deeper extension because of the bigger box (not because of the bigger woofer).

It's really interesting how ppl with 410 calling the 118 "from another era", when the 410 cube is equally "out of date". It's like someone coming up to me in big shoulder pad, telling me how my bell bottom is so yesterday.

agedhorse · #17 09-24-2010, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by babebambi

Running different cabs in full range on the same head is not advisable. Usually because of phase issue, and imbalance power handling.

For the most part this is an urban myth.

Provided the cabinets are like type (meaning that both cabinets are the same type of cabinet like bass reflex) and that the net tuning is reasonably similar (which for this purpose most will be close enough), mixing is not going to cause any significant problems. Of course, if the POLARITY is backwards due to a non-standard driver or a miswired (read as incorrectly repaired, altered or modified) cabinet, this will be a serious problem.

For this particular OP's example, there will be no meaningful problems either since neither cabinet runs the chance of being overpowered and thus damaged.

Just a little common sense goes a long way in making multiple cabinets successful.

babebambi · #18 09-24-2010, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agedhorse

For the most part this is an urban myth.

Provided the cabinets are like type (meaning that both cabinets are the same type of cabinet like bass reflex) and that the net tuning is reasonably similar (which for this purpose most will be close enough), mixing is not going to cause any significant problems. Of course, if the POLARITY is backwards due to a non-standard driver or a miswired (read as incorrectly repaired, altered or modified) cabinet, this will be a serious problem.

For this particular OP's example, there will be no meaningful problems either since neither cabinet runs the chance of being overpowered and thus damaged.

Just a little common sense goes a long way in making multiple cabinets successful.

You are right, I shouldn't have said "not advisable"; what I meant to say was I wouldn't recommend such combo if the OP is starting from scratch. But since for the OP's example it has no meaningful ill effect as you pointed out, all is fine. If it sounds good to the OP, then it is good.

dmusic148 · #19 09-24-2010, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by babebambi

It's really interesting how ppl with 410 calling the 118 "from another era", when the 410 cube is equally "out of date".

You can still get 4x10's from a variety of manufacturers. Not so Big Ben. There's a reason.

Bluesbob · #20 09-25-2010, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by babebambi

It's really interesting how ppl with 410 calling the 118 "from another era", when the 410 cube is equally "out of date". It's like someone coming up to me in big shoulder pad, telling me how my bell bottom is so yesterday.

While this a very funny analogy, I wouldn't say that it is correct. I have a couple of 4X10's and a 2X10. I use the 2X10 for small, low volume gigs, the 4X10 for almost all of my gigs and the 2X10 and 4X10 together if I really need to pump it up. I've never used the two 4X10's together, but if I ever need that much volume, it's nice to think that I could. I almost never use PA support - sometimes even when it's available, so different options are important. I wouldn't have those options without my 4X10(s).
I also have a Big Ben gathering dust in my basement. A friend practically gave it to me for $100. I've only heard it once when I loaned it to somebody to try - it does have some low-end, but not enough to make me want to load it. Needless to say, I've never used it.
I admit that this is JMHO and YMMV and all, but what I said is still true - the 1X18 cab is from another era. And I don't think that's true about the 4X10.
How about this?
It's like a guy in a new Civic with a spoiler making fun of the fins on an old Chrysler.