How much tone from cab?

fowlbass · #1 03-28-2010, 03:30 PM

I am wanting to upgrade but do not know what to start with. I have behringer 450w amp through behringer 410 cab but use a sansamp BDDI into the return to bypass amp eq. Since I am bypassing the amp eq I am assuming that I am not getting the behringer tone to the cab, just Sansamp tone. Now, how much difference would a new cab make? How much difference would a new amp make if I run the sansamp through the return of a new amp? Will I hear a definate tone change with either change. Would like to get nice stuff but bills require baby steps. Don't know which to replace first. Thanks for any input.

steveksux · #2 03-28-2010, 03:35 PM

If you're already bypassing the "Behringer" eq section, presumably the power amp is relatively neutral tone wise. On the other hand, cabs are notorious for coloring tone. If you want to ditch the "Behringer" tone, a new speaker would be the next logical step.

If cost is a major concern, Avatar cabs have generally gotten good reviews, and are cheap. If you like tweeter cabs.

Used is also a good option to save money.

Randy

wetzelman1 · #3 03-28-2010, 03:35 PM

personally, I would upgrade the behringer cab first. I actually just saw a band that had a guy running a sansamp into a behringer head into a 410 and 210 and it sounded killer. what kindof music or tone are you going for?

aledeville · #4 03-28-2010, 03:48 PM

First thing: The cab makes the tone. No cab - no tone. The better the cab - the better the tone. The best cab combined with a bad head is way better than a bad cab with a good head.
That means "yes", you will have a better tone. I would get rid of the Behringer cab as fast as possible.

But you will still have some Behringer sound. You're running the B* poweramp and they're not famous for beeing very clear and precise.

Mike19 · #5 03-28-2010, 03:56 PM

Hi fowlbass -

Suggestion: take your bass, Behringer head and SansAmp down to your local Guitar Center (71st Street ?) and try out all of thier 2 x 10, 1 x 12, 2 x 12 and 1 x 15 cabs. If you do not find the sound you are looking for then its not a new cab that you need.

If you do not find the sound you want, or you do but can't afford the cab, see what happens with a different head. Take your bass, your Behringer 410 cab and your SansAmp back to GC and try all the heads you can afford. If none of them do the trick, then maybe you need to save more money before you upgrade.

Or, maybe you need a new bass rather than a rig?

fowlbass · #6 03-28-2010, 04:26 PM

I am glad to hear that the cab has a lot to do with the tone. I use two basses through the rig and it just sounds "sterile". The sansamp helped a ton, just not great yet. I do get a good sound at low levels but if I get any volume it just gets nasty. I do like both a clean sound and a nice warm tube sound. I really should go down to the GC and plug and play. Thanks for the info guys, just want to spent wise.

Sartori · #7 03-28-2010, 06:26 PM

Cabs can affect the tone in huge ways. While still sounding like the same amp, when I've played through the big Sunn 6x10 (or is it a 6x12?) at my band's rehearsal spot, it sounds very different from when I play through my 1x15, or when I combine the 15" with my 2x10.

Remember, the speakers are the final link in one's signal chain, and what actually move the air. Different speakers have different characteristics, and the box they're in also affects how they sound. The same cab will sound different with different speakers, and the same speaker will sound different in a different box.

steveksux · #8 03-28-2010, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fowlbass

I am glad to hear that the cab has a lot to do with the tone. I use two basses through the rig and it just sounds "sterile". The sansamp helped a ton, just not great yet. I do get a good sound at low levels but if I get any volume it just gets nasty. I do like both a clean sound and a nice warm tube sound. I really should go down to the GC and plug and play. Thanks for the info guys, just want to spent wise.

If it sounds good at low volume, then gets crappy, it could be either the speakers or the power amp. Probably the speakers, either crappy or blown.

If the head is an honest 450 w it should be adequate. Check if the amp is rated at 450 w at 4 ohms (typical) and see what the ohms rating of the cab is. If the cab is 8 ohms (typical), you're not getting the full 450 w. It probably only puts out 250-300 w @ 8ohm. And if the wattage rating of the head is not RMS, but peak power instaead, maybe cut that almost in half. In that case, you could possibly need an amp more than speakers. Which head model do you have, we can look it up online and give you a more definitive answer.

Given Behringer is not known to be quality stuff, you'll probably end up replacing both at some point, but better to replace the worst offender first if you can identify it.

Edit to add: Is this the BX4500H? 450w @4 ohms. No mention of RMS or Peak, or Program watts, so expect the worst. Be surprised if it puts out an honest 300 w without lots of distortion.

The 410 speaker is rated at 4 ohms, so at least you're getting the full power out of the amp. The bad news is that means you can't add another cab and run both, the amp won't stand for less than a 4 ohm load its already got with your existing 410.

Which brings up another dilemna... The head will put out less power at 8 ohm loads. So if you get an 8 ohm cab to replace the one you have, you'll be lucky to get 200 W clean watts out of the head, it may become the weak link at that point, and the speaker won't make much difference.

I might be tempted to switch my vote to get the amp first. Its too close to really call.

I'd drag my stuff to GC and try cabs with the head, and other heads with your cab to see which is holding you back the most.
Randy

JimmyM · #9 03-28-2010, 07:54 PM

my motto...skimping on bass is fine, skimping on amp is fine, skimping on cab will screw everything.

countrybass007 · #10 03-28-2010, 08:27 PM

Cabs can make a big difference in your sound. That's why you see all the combinations of 10s, 12s, 15s, and various mixtures with and without horns. The suggestion to try your amp with various heads is a good one.

fowlbass · #11 03-29-2010, 01:21 AM

It is the BX4500H and the cab is the one with the aluminum cones that is rated for 1000W. I have a little 25w crate practice amp which sounds better to me at low volumes than the B rig. I have found myself wanting to take it to low volume gigs but i would have to set it up right in my ear hole and the drummer gets upset when he can't hear me.

I know my eq skills are not great but I can't dial in a nice sound. I will get what I think is a playable sound. step 25' away from it and it sounds like crap to me. It doesnt sound as rich and creamy as when I am right on it. I know a lot is the room but man. I have kept this gear for three years. It could prob be dialed in and sound great by a player with good skills but I can't get it done. So I figured I would try something else.

I do like the Ampeg BA combo in the store setting. Guess I could go combo instead of head/cab. So many options! I love it!
Thanks

suraj · #12 03-29-2010, 01:54 AM

A combo would be the most affordable and convinient option for you. Though IME a B* amps life span is two years. Your lucky with three years on yours.. Sell both and go for a combo before it fails and becomes unrepairable junk..!!
Something on these lines maybe -

http://bass-guitars.musiciansfriend....mbo?sku=482902
http://bass-guitars.musiciansfriend....Amp?sku=584203

PSPookie · #13 03-29-2010, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

my motto...skimping on bass is fine, skimping on amp is fine, skimping on cab will screw everything.

+1

A cab can color your tone a great deal or very little. It all depends on the cab and your tonal goals.
IME, fiding a cab I like is the toughest part of the tone quest. I'm much more lfexible on basses and heads.

Also, if you really like the Sansamp tone you might consider selling your head and just using the Sansamp to drive a power amp.

rptrsn2 · #14 03-29-2010, 08:48 AM

i,d keep the sansamp, pick a power amp and avatar cab, you'd have an inexspensive killer rig

fowlbass · #15 03-29-2010, 09:39 PM

So the sansamp ran through the return of the behringer will still be colored by the behringer? Or should it sound the same as power amp/sansamp? If it is only sansamp color that comes out when I bypass the b eq I will just use the b as the power amp and search for a new cab first. The Avatar looks nice but have not played through one yet. Thanks for all the info, I am slow to learn all this.

suraj · #16 03-30-2010, 03:55 AM

This is correct..the sansamp going into the return of the B* acts like a preamp and the B8 becomes a poweramp(you will have to push the 1/4 boost switch on the Sansamp to use as a pre)..solid state poweramps ideally do not color tone..But the B* poweramp is NOT one of the precise peices of gear. They dont really faithfully amplify the sound and make it sound muddy and nasally..theres no clarity, no definition.. Although your sansamp puts so much color in your tone, that it makes subtle differences buying a better amp. But a better cab would be the first to upgrade. It will make the most notable difference in sound for the better.
Hope this helps

fowlbass · #17 03-30-2010, 06:49 AM

Helps a ton. I will start with the cab. Thanks for all the input!

Steveaux · #18 03-30-2010, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

my motto...skimping on bass is fine, skimping on amp is fine, skimping on cab will screw everything.

I really like the way you put that, Jimmy.