How wrong is this guy?

Luckie · #1 02-21-2011, 02:26 AM

I've been wanting a Fender 400PS for a while now.
I spend some time on this site here, fantasizing about the tone possibilities and cab configurations I could do. http://www.timeelect.com/400-faq.htm#21. Ar
This guy clearly knows the 400PS inside and out, but his opinions on speaker and cabinet designs conflict with those of BFM (basically my only source of information on cab and speaker performance) and thusly seem wrong. Are they really? If so, to what extent? Were old drivers really that much more full-range and sensitive?

Matthijs · #2 02-21-2011, 03:06 AM

I'm not seeing that much of a difference. His basic message is: more speakers or higher speaker efficiency trumps more watts, that sounds like Bill to me

. Besides that message he also claims the old JBL's are much more efficient than the modern stuff, I think he's overestimating and generalizing that difference. I wouldn't let him stop you build a modern 3 channel cab, if alone for the possibility of using neo's.

JimmyM · #3 02-21-2011, 03:35 AM

i used to know rich koerner. i still see him pop up on the net now and again but it's been a while. i'll sum it up...

both very knowledgeable guys. rich is a fan of old stuff and likes the way it was made. bill likes newer stuff and has about zero use for any bass cab that's not a horn enclosure. scientifically bill is pretty much always right. but one could argue that rich's ears tell him that his way is right.

billfitzmaurice · #4 02-21-2011, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthijs

more speakers or higher speaker efficiency trumps more watts

True.

Quote:

he also claims the old JBL's are much more efficient than the modern stuff.

False.
JBLs, EVs, Gauss, Altec etc. with very low Qes figures did on average have higher sensitivity above 200Hz than most modern drivers. That sensitivity was obtained at the cost of sensitivity below 200Hz. Since it's below 200Hz where 70% of the power demand of electric bass lies there's no advantage to that driver type. If there was they wouldn't have stopped making them.
As for their HF extension yes, many did go higher than today's. But only on-axis. IMO if most of your audience can't hear what you hear because they're not standing directly in front of your cab then how sweet it sounds to you is rather meaningless. I want everyone to hear what I hear, or at least as many as possible. And that's reason #2, after sensitivity, why I use horns. They're tailored to give wider midrange dispersion than direct radiators.

jnewmark · #5 02-21-2011, 06:49 AM

As far as JBL goes, I always thought they got out of the MI speaker business for economical reasons ( not making enough $ on bass or guitar speakers ), and wanted to concentrate all their efforts on the Pro Sound market.

billfitzmaurice · #6 02-21-2011, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jnewmark

As far as JBL goes, I always thought they got out of the MI speaker business for economical reasons ( not making enough $ on bass or guitar speakers ), and wanted to concentrate all their efforts on the Pro Sound market.

They dropped out of the OEM and replacement driver market because they make more money selling their drivers in their own cabs. They still offer a few obsolete drivers at retail, but none that are used in their own pro-sound products.

Matthijs · #7 02-21-2011, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

but one could argue that rich's ears tell him that his way is right.

I'm not going near the ears vs science discussion, I think that subject has been dealt with to great satisfaction.

What, for me, raises some doubts about this guy is that he uses a comparison of spl in 8 10's vs 12 15's as proof that in the old day's things were better. My main doubt's are wether his hearing is still intact after doing a lot of those comparisons.

Krügmeister · #8 02-21-2011, 07:14 AM

Maybe there is beauty in imperfection? I can honestly say I love the old vintage AND the new stuff.
I loved the sound of the EV 15L until I replaced it with a 3015HO.

jnewmark · #9 02-21-2011, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krügmeister

Maybe there is beauty in imperfection? I can honestly say I love the old vintage AND the new stuff.
I loved the sound of the EV 15L until I replaced it with a 3015HO.

I still love the tone of those old JBL E140's and , frankly, had enough low end to satisfy me. heavy as hell though with two of them in a cab !

AwkwardLoudness · #10 02-21-2011, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Were old drivers really that much more full-range and sensitive?

No, not even close. Maybe Mr. Koerner needs to listen to more of the modern speaker+cab offerings. Some vintage speakers have great unique tone, but the range and and sensitivity of certain modern speakers far exceed any vintage ones.

I respect his knowledge of the 400PS, which is a very complex amp. RK's name frequently appears in 400PS topic discussions.

Luckie · #11 02-21-2011, 08:23 AM

I figured it was a combination of right/wrong ideas, thanks for clearing all of that up!
Now if I can just choose three efficient 4 ohm cabs to make/buy...

billfitzmaurice · #12 02-21-2011, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckie

I figured it was a combination of right/wrong ideas, thanks for clearing all of that up!
Now if I can just choose three efficient 4 ohm cabs to make/buy...

Choose one, make/buy three of them.

Luckie · #13 02-21-2011, 08:44 AM

I've been considering 3 Jack 15's w/melded arrays, but aren't your cabs mostly 8 ohms?
What 4 ohm 15 would you have paired with that enclosure?

AwkwardLoudness · #14 02-21-2011, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckie

I figured it was a combination of right/wrong ideas, thanks for clearing all of that up!
Now if I can just choose three efficient 4 ohm cabs to make/buy...

Get a 400PS first (if you can find one) before worrying about cabs. I only saw one of these for sale in the past year. There are lots of options.

If I had a 400PS, I'd probably first try three Avatar TB153 cabs (4Ω version). These are 3-way cabs with 15" sub driver, 6" mid driver, and adjustable tweeter. I think the Mesa Powerhouse 1x15 cab has a 4Ω option. Three Bergantino AE112 would be good, too. I wish Berg still made a 1x15, though. Three fEarful or Bill Fitzmaurice cabs would be great if you don't building them yourself from the designs.

Luckie · #15 02-21-2011, 09:14 AM

There's one for sale locally, but I'd like to see what the total cab cost would be before I decide to purchase.
I'm cool with building, but I get the impression that most fEarful/BFM cabs are 8 ohms. And since the enclosures are designed around a particular driver (right?), I can't just switch drivers to get the correct load.

wcriley · #16 02-21-2011, 10:33 AM

I know where there's an original 400PS cab that might be for sale. haven't seen it, but have been told it's in pretty rough cosmetic condidtion.

PM me if interested.

Luckie · #17 02-21-2011, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wcriley

I know where there's an original 400PS cab that might be for sale. haven't seen it, but have been told it's in pretty rough cosmetic condidtion.

PM me if interested.

Thanks, but I'm looking to pair the 400PS with the most efficient cabinets possible for maximum devastation.

Krügmeister · #18 02-21-2011, 12:11 PM

You don't need very efficient cabs to get maximum devastastion with the 400ps

newbold · #19 02-21-2011, 01:25 PM

3xj210's or 3xj15's (with 4 ohm drivers) would get you to full load/power.

will33 · #20 02-21-2011, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newbold

Stop thinking about load. If you're going BFM that's not important.

When you NEED to go to 2 ohms to fill a large venue, you'll have 4 jack 15's pumping.

If you're running 2 Jack15's that's still enormous and will take lots of juice.

Hell, one J15 is gonna be great. Doubt you'd be able to blow it before you'd blow your eardrums.

That's not how the 400PS works. It has 3 speaker outs rated at about 135 watts each. It's like having three 135watts tube heads all in one package. Thus three 4ohm speakers/cabs are needed to make use of the whole amp.