HPF vs Parametric EQ for controlling rumble w/Streamliner and Thunderchild?

[steve_rolfeca]

I'm looking for suggestions re: taming a rumble I'm hearing/feeling with the Streamliner through my AudioKinesis Thunderchild. This seems to be the cause of a lack of clarity that I'm hearing with this rig, and it's still there even when I run an ART Tube MP or my little Mackie mixer straight into the power amp input.

I'm thinking about Fdeck's HPF/preamp, the DTAR Equinox parametric preamp, or an Empress ParaEQ.

My understanding is that the power stage in the Streamliner already has a pretty hefty HPF on it, which seems to be borne out by the lack of uncontrolled cone movement when I wiggle the B string, or dig in hard. Plus, Fdeck's HPF only has a 12dB per octave slope, and I'm worried about losing too much of the "good" low end.

On the other hand, the ParaEQ is limited by switched Q settings instead of a rotary control, and the DTAR is nearly as big as my 900 watt amp. Plus, they cost more than 3X as much as the HPF...

[Warrior_Bass]

I remember seeing an "inline" high pass filter (I believe in the effects forum) just a few weeks ago. It was a 5 pole filter (30 dB/octave) at 30 Hz, in the form of a small enclosure (smaller than a pedal). I tried a search and can't seem to find it...

EDIT: Here it is...the thumpinator

[jnewmark]

Or maybe try a different bass head ? I have never played a Streamliner, but, after reading about them, it seems like a " love it or hate it " bass head.

[JxBass]

I owned the Streamliner 900 and paired it with my Thunderchild 112 and, while it's a great head, I ultimately let it go. After awhile I felt it was a bit too warm for me and didn't fit well with the TC112's smoothness - too much of a good thing.

I also own a Shuttle 9.0 and enjoy that pairing more. My #1 amp is an Acoustic Image, which has the smoothness of the Streamliner with less "wooliness".

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by JxBass

I owned the Streamliner 900 and paired it with my Thunderchild 112... ...After awhile I felt it was a bit too warm for me and didn't fit well with the TC112's smoothness...

I also own a Shuttle 9.0 and enjoy that pairing more. My #1 amp is an Acoustic Image, which has the smoothness of the Streamliner with less "wooliness".

I'm very reluctant to consider dumping the Streamliner. I liked the Shuttle 9.0 when I tried it with my old cabs, but found it too bright/gritty compared to the Streamliner.

Still, tell me more about how the shuttle 9.0 compares to the Streamliner and Clarus?

[Joe Smithberger]

It would seem that you have the perfect combination of head and cabinet to prevent low frequency problems

Personally, while I like using the Fdeck unit with upright bass, I don't like using it with my regular electric setup - mostly because of it's form factor. The Micro-Thumpinator will probably do very little when used in front of the Genz. Another option that can be had cheap is the Fishman Platinum Pro. This unit has a Variable high pass (depth), Optical compressor, and a graphic EQ, as well as a phase switch than can be useful if you use the DI. I don't use the Fishman for every gig, but it will solve a lot of problems in weird rooms or with Piezo equipped basses like my Rob Allen.

[Ric Vice]

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

I'm looking for suggestions re: taming a rumble I'm hearing/feeling with the Streamliner through my AudioKinesis Thunderchild. This seems to be the cause of a lack of clarity that I'm hearing with this rig, and it's still there even when I run an ART Tube MP or my little Mackie mixer straight into the power amp input..

Steve,
Is it as bad when you use the tilt up lifter, on the bottom of the cabinet? If that helps, you should try borrowing a Auralex Gramma from someone. I use the Gramma in the really boomy halls where I do concerts here in St. Louis
it really helps without compromising the bass response of the TC 112

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

I'm looking for
I'm thinking about Fdeck's HPF/preamp, the DTAR Equinox parametric preamp, or an Empress ParaEQ..

I only have experience with the HPF which works beautifully for Double Bass, and I suppose would do exactly the same thing with Electric, except the input impedance of the HPF is 10 meg ohm, so I'm not sure how much you basses are gonna like that. It's really designed for DB.

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

I'm looking for
My understanding is that the power stage in the Streamliner already has a pretty hefty HPF on it, which seems to be borne out by the lack of uncontrolled cone movement when I wiggle the B string, or dig in hard. Plus, Fdeck's HPF only has a 12dB per octave slope, and I'm worried about losing too much of the "good" low end..

You're correct that the HPF is gonna start dialing out the B String in pretty short order, as you raise the frequency.

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

I'm looking for
On the other hand, the ParaEQ is limited by switched Q settings instead of a rotary control, and the DTAR is nearly as big as my 900 watt amp. Plus, they cost more than 3X as much as the HPF...

[shwashwa]

use an adjustable high pass filter. i use one with my electrics all the time. doesnt kill the low end, but gets rid of the junk you dont need. the 10meg ohm input impedance is fine for your electric. problems occur when the input impedance is too low, but not usually from it being too high. it will let all your frequiencies come through rather than bleeding off the low end, then you can tame it with the filter. the fishman is a good unit. i also use the radial pz pre with my electrics and love it, and also the headway preamp has a hpf too, but if you have good eq on the amp then the fdeck unit should be fine

[rpsands]

The Shuttlemax 9.2 would be a decent choice. Or a Markbass Sd1200 (which appear to still be on sale).


For an in-line thing I suggest looking at a pedal format HPF. Putnam can do a nice one to your specs (35hz 24db/octave butterworth!)

[silky smoove]

Head over to the effects forum and search for Microthumpinator. It does exactly what you're looking for, is very small, and provides a very nice buffered output.

[rpsands]

Thumpinator's slope is too shallow for serious bass boosting. Probably good for the casual 4-string user. Not my first choice for 5-stringers.

[agedhorse]

None of those HPF's are going to help much, either way too low or shallow. The built in HPF is much more effective already compared to most of the external units I am familiar with. If this is what you are looking for, you need a 4th order variable FREQUENCY HPF that you can tune to your rig. A (pro audio) parametric with a shelving LF band would also work, and fin into the effects loop.

Alternately, you can turn the LF eq knob down to maybe the 9:00 position to help tame some of the inherent LF voicing.

[Mike Arnopol]

You really need a 24db/octave HPF.
I have a Symetrix 5 band fully parametric eq. One rack space and pretty shallow. In conjunction with the eq it has 24db/octave HPF and LPF.

[agedhorse]

To expand a little, this topic seems pretty simple on the surface but is quite complex as the frequency, slope and Q (or alignment) combine to alter the signal in more subjective (to the player) ways than might be casually imagined. For example, a 40Hz, 4th order BW alignment might be ideal for solving one problem but not so good for another, or in another room where the acoustics interact with their own inherent filter characteristics, so the net acosutic response might favor one approach or filter type over another, as might playing style. A 2nd order filter set a little higher might be a more forgiving solution for some applications but not for others. There is also the LR alignment, a little lower Q through the corner which might be nice BUT the calculations for these are generally stated at the -6dB point as the primary use of this filter is in constant power summing applications. Corrections (or manual tuning) can make this a very viable option as well.

In the end, and especially if driver protection is one of the goals, I tend towards a 4th order BW type alignment that allows the F3 (corner) to be just a little bit lower.

[msmucr]

Hello Steve,

hi-pass filter in Streamliner (as in Shuttles) is in preamp, so when you used Mackie mixer for feeding FX return, it was without any built-in filtering or EQ shaping.
IMO, Streamliner's hi-pass filter has very well chosen frequency and slope. It is just about right values for unloading unnecessary LF stuff from speakers, protect it (calm down dancing cones) and still leave good bass guitar fundamentals. I tried it with several bass enclosures (from small 1x12 EBS, Uber 212 to 6x10 XB), compared to PA amps with variable HPF and also tried different preamps without HPF. To me it really do, what is supposed to do.
My guess is, that if you still feel rumble and unfocused, loose lows with 5 str. electric bass, HPF at higher frequency won't work without "cutting into meat"... and IME, either bult-in low shelving EQ adjustment or small cut with additional parametric EQ centered at higher frequency (eg 120Hz) will be better.
My tip, before purchasing of EQ pedal, is to record bass (with mentioned extremes.. Low B, hard attacks) to computer. Play that record through Streamliner and try some plugin EQ for simulation. It is easy way to find what is needed to improve situation.

Michal

P.S.: If you are on Windows,
AiXcoustic Creations: Electri-Q - posihfopit
Very precise freeware EQ plugin with several kinds of filters incl. 4th order Butterworth HPF

[KJung]

I LOVE my Streamliner. I LOVE my Thunderchild.

I do not use them together.

[sunbeast]

I have one of fDeck's HPFs and have used it before my Streamliner- for me it does work. I discussed with him using it with electric before I bought it, and he said it should be fine as long as the signal you are putting into it isn't too strong- it was designed for a relatively low output from a passive piezo style pickup and will clip with a very hot signal. He also said it could be put in an FX loop as long as the preamp wasn't too gainy beforehand, you just have to try it and see. I actually haven't had trouble when using it first in line after my passive basses (a couple of which have pretty hot outputs), and if there is clipping it isn't obvious (he designed it so that it does clip very smoothly when it does).

As mentioned here, different types of filters will do different things- I found that the shallowness of the fDeck allows me to put it on a relatively high frequency- say 100 or 150hz and it will make a pretty smooth cutoff of much of the excess low and low-mid inherent to the Streamliner without completely cutting off it's "balls". It may work for you, but it may not- I should also add that I play my Streamliner exclusively through a Berg NV610, so it is a completely different animal than the Thunderchild- the Berg is already attenuated in the lowest lows, but does accentuate the already powerful low-mids of the Streamliner a little too much for me!

[agedhorse]

Originally Posted by msmucr

Hello Steve,

hi-pass filter in Streamliner (as in Shuttles) is in preamp, so when you used Mackie mixer for feeding FX return, it was without any built-in filtering or EQ shaping.

Correct, and I must have missed the part where the OP is going into a mixer.

Note that the input impedance if the mixer's 1/4" line inputs is way too low for any passive bass, that could also be part of the problem?

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by agedhorse

Correct, and I must have missed the part where the OP is going into a mixer.

Note that the input impedance if the mixer's 1/4" line inputs is way too low for any passive bass, that could also be part of the problem?

Sorry, I should have been more clear.

1. Active bass w/EMG 40P5's @ 18V. No onboard EQ, not even a passive tone control, just V/V. I can drive a mixer input with it, no problem.

2. Normally, I don't use any effects. Just my bass and a cable.

3. Purely as a diagnostic test, I tried running a more SS-sounding preamp into the Streamliner's power amp input. The Mackie was handy, so that's what I used. I also tried it as an insert in the effects loop, with my bass plugged straight into the Streamliner. But the Mackie is NOT part of my normal signal chain...

This misunderstanding has raised an interesting point, though: I thought the HPF and the 3DPM were after the effects loop?

[agedhorse]

3DPM is after the insert point, the HPF is before.

There's a lot going on within most preamps that is responsible for voicing, feel, etc. The power amp is (in the tonal realm) the simple part of the tone equation (BUT not in terms of overload recovery, stability, reliability, "girth", etc).

Please don't take my trivializing of these things as literal, a bass amp is really the sum of a bunch of parts, concepts and design philosophies along with some hard core engineering. Trivial must be taken in context.