hybrid amps?

[gimmethelowend]

I was down at Guitar Center, looking around at amps, and one of the salesmen started talking to me. I asked him some stuff about hybrid amps with a tube preamp and a solid state power section, and he told me that these types of amps are more or less gimics, and that if you want that "tube" sound, you have to go all in. I know that this might make me sound a bit ignorant, but is that true?

[Epidrake]

I love my Genz Benz Shuttle 6 with a tube preamp. I get the grind I want from the tube and a ton of power from the SS section. Tubes are great, hot, heavy and require more maintenance. It's a personal decision. But the guy at GC is wrong, it's not a gimmick.
FWIW I have a 1971 Ampeg V4 full stack that I love, but don't ask me to move it.

[Quickie]

Originally Posted by gimmethelowend

I was down at Guitar Center, looking around at amps, and one of the salesmen started talking to me. I asked him some stuff about hybrid amps with a tube preamp and a solid state power section, and he told me that these types of amps are more or less gimics, and that if you want that "tube" sound, you have to go all in. I know that this might make me sound a bit ignorant, but is that true?

No. Consider the source.

[greggster59]

He's never played through an Ampeg SVT-7PRO then.

[Nev375]

These days you don't even need tubes to get tube sound.

[runmikeyrun]

A good SS pre will sound better than a bad tube preamp, but if you like tube tone then a hybrid amp might be right for you. Keep in mind though no hybrid will ever sound like an all-tube amp.

That being said, with the RIGHT tube a tube preamp will give you great tone. I say the right tube because some preamps come with sub-par tubes- no name chinese tubes or stuff like EH or Mesa tubes, which are re-branded Chinese tubes. Not that they necessarily sound bad, they usually have room for improvement.

Your ear is the best judge- if you like the sound, tube or SS then go with it. If you get a tube preamp, check into better quality tubes to replace the stocker(s) with- JJ 12AX7s are great on bass, or something NOS if you can afford it.

[JimmyM]

Whie I'm a huge all-tube fan and believe that they sound better always, there is no denying how good SS and hybrid have gotten at copping very realistic tubey tones. It's still not quite the same, but as of the last 5-6 years, it's gotten a whole lot better.

[skychief]

Originally Posted by gimmethelowend

he told me that these types of amps are more or less gimics, and that if you want that "tube" sound, you have to go all in. I know that this might make me sound a bit ignorant, but is that true?

False. You do not sound ignorant. As usual the knuckleheads at GC are trying to make a quick buck. Amps with tube power sections typically cost much more than their solid-state counterparts. The "sound" is defined in the pre-amp section of the amp. Hybrid amps are the way to go IMO; tube sound with solid-state efficiency & weight.

[Toastfuzz]

Another hybrid amp user here. Never having owned an all-tube amp, I can't give a direct comparison, but I know my Ampeg SVT3Pro has a higher quality tone than most solid state amps I see/hear.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by skychief

False. You do not sound ignorant. As usual the knuckleheads at GC are trying to make a quick buck. Amps with tube power sections typically cost much more than their solid-state counterparts. The "sound" is defined in the pre-amp section of the amp. Hybrid amps are the way to go IMO; tube sound with solid-state efficiency & weight.

I don't disagree with anything you said except the bolded part. The sound of a tube amp is as defined in the power section as the preamp. This is why many folks stick with tube amps when they could get a hybrid and lighten their load a bit.

[JTE]

What the sales bufoon at GC said is wrong. The idea of "tube tone" is pretty flexible. On some amps the tube is pretty much a gimmick because it doesn't add much to the sound of the amp.^* The issue is exactly what KIND of tube sound is your goal. The preamp does have a huge impact and a good tube pre with a good solid state power amp can be wonderful sounding, reliable, relatively inexpensive to maintain, less costly to purchase, and weight a lot less than a complete tube amp. But, as JimmyM says, there's a HUGE impact one gets from the way a good tube power amp processes the signal and controls the speakers.

Using guitar amps for example, there's a big difference in the sound of the early Fender tweed Bassmans and the early Marshalls. Jim Marshall used the Bassman as his model, but his power amps were quite different. Part of the essential Marshall crunch and depth (which I don't think has really been in any new Marshall since they started putting in master volumes) is the way the power amp overdrives. The thick creamy sound of the guitar on Cream, Hendrix, and Steve Winwood's guitar parts with Traffic was due to the way a Marshall behaves when you push the power amp hard. That same thing happens with a good big tube bass amp, even if you're not after massive distortion. It does indeed sound and feel very different.

Playing through a huge tube bass amp (my favorite experience with this was a Marshall Major 200 W head driving a pair of Marshall 4x12's with bass speakers...) is different than playing through a good tube pre and a solid state power amp. But, there are other costs and it's up to the individual to judge whether those sound factors are worth the added weight, expenses, care & maintenance, etc.

For me personally, I like lighter, cooler, and less finicky amps than an all-tube bass head. But I don't care if it's a hybrid, all SS or not. Just like when buying a bass, those things are much less significant than "what does it sound like"? Buy the amp, not the catalog!

John


^*The Eden WT series preamp for example. The 12AX7 doesn't really do much to the sound according to things I've read about the tube's location in the circuit. Not that it really matters though. I bought my WT-400 because it sounded GREAT, not because the advertising said it had a tube or that it had a "tube sound"...

[username1]

IMO hybrid amps can vary alot depending on model. I prefer the hybrids that use high voltage on the pre tubes. On some hybrids the tube is just a selling feature and i prefer a solid state head that tries to sound like a tube amp. Other hybrids like the lh series hartkes, gk, genze benze, ampeg etc. seem to make good use of pre tubes and i like them alot. I think an all tube amp is in a class all by itself but i do like alot of the hybrids.

[MisterWraith]

Well, my Ampeg SVT4 Pro definitely benefits from the warmth and growl of the tube driven preamp. When I got my SVTII pro originally, I thought all tube was the way to go for me. However after having the SVT4Pro for the past 6 years or so, I like it better. For me, the Solid state power section seems to add more focus and definition, where I still have that nice tube tone as part of the sound.. It DOES sound different than an all tube amp but it also sounds very different from an all solid state amp without some sort of computer chip based onboard amp modeling (not that this is necessarily a bad thing for those who find it works for them).. In a Nutshell, I'd say the GC sales person Is a little short for Richard, and was trying to separate you from cash at the cost of actual good advice.

[Lowbrow]

Salesman's statement is false. It's not a gimmick as he stated, though some hybrid amps are better than others at achieving tubey tone. For me, the Mesa Walkabout is a winner in this regard, while the tube in the Carvin BX500 doesn't seem to do much.

[mattbass6945]

couldn't agree more with people here. in my experience, having gone from a solid gk, to an svt3 hybrid, to a svt classic all tube, tube is the way to go, however i loved the svt3 and the svt4 is awesome too, hybrids can be a lot cheaper and lighter. i never think weight should be a determining factor, but it is a plus. play as much as you can and trust your ear.

[GBassNorth]

There's even Hybrids among the Hybrids. I have a 1980 Musicman Hybrid HD150 combined Guitar/Bass amp head. What makes it really different is the preamp is Solid State and the power section is all tube at 150watts. If you turn down the preamp gain and max the poweramp gain along with your guitar volume it'll scream like a Marshall in lush overdrive distortion. If you turn down your guitar volume along with the poweramp gain and then crank the preamp volume it'll play crystal clear like a fender super reverb. Same goes for the bass channel.
So my response to the GC guy - Nuts.

[Jmathews8]

Man this thread was the answer to my question!! Thanks!

[T-Bird]

Hi.

Originally Posted by gimmethelowend

I was down at Guitar Center, looking around at amps, and one of the salesmen started talking to me. I asked him some stuff about hybrid amps with a tube preamp and a solid state power section, and he told me that these types of amps are more or less gimics, and that if you want that "tube" sound, you have to go all in. I know that this might make me sound a bit ignorant, but is that true?

Some are (were) gimmics, but today the technology is pretty cheap, so there's really no need to use a tube if it doesn't do a squat. The hybrids are a bit more cmplicated to make though, so the profit margin may be less than on full tube or full SS amps.

It also depends on what You're after, just like JTE wrote. If it's the power amp sections "peculiarities" on a tube amp, then just having a tube pre can leave You wanting more and feeling like something's missing.

OTOH, some people use tube pre's with SS power amps as a separates rig, for the tube pre sound they're after.

There's also tube "pre's" that have an output tube and an output transformer, so one can have a "true" tube path to be amplified. SWR IOD is (was) the best known example of that technology, and there was a thread about modern such pre's just recently.

I'd shop elsewhere in the future if that's possible, the salesman wasn't trying to help You, just trying to make more profit. IMHO anyway.

Just buy/use what You like and screw the mumbo-jumbo .

Regards
Sam

[soulman969]

Originally Posted by Toastfuzz

Another hybrid amp user here. Never having owned an all-tube amp, I can't give a direct comparison, but I know my Ampeg SVT3Pro has a higher quality tone than most solid state amps I see/hear.

+1 I went from using a Carvin Bass Heab with a Real Tube pedal to an Ampeg SVT III Pro and there was a world of difference in how much better the Ampeg sounded. If was putting together a bigger rig a hybrid head is where I'd start.