I am going to challenge TB amp conventional wisdom...

[LiquidMidnight]

...and say that you should always mix speaker sizes for optimal performance, never plug in a head that is rated less than your cabinet, remind everyone that power handling rather than sensitivity is more important regarding volume, tube watts are different than solid-state watts, and insist that neo drivers have an intrinsic tonal difference as compared to ceramic drivers.



In all seriousness, there is something I see get quoted over and over here that I think is taken a bit to an extreme and loses its validity. What I'm talking about is the notion that you have to "match" the power handling of your guitarist in order to be heard - I believe 4-fold is the number often quoted for power.

I think this rule of thumb is problematic for a number of reasons. First, and most saliently, it assumes that just because your guitarist(s) have a certain amount of power on tap in their amp that they are using it. Just because your guitar player has a 100 watt Marshall doesn't mean they're always going to be pushing 100 watts. Believe it or not, there are guitarists who don't blast their rigs at eardrum rupturing volumes. Second, it also doesn't take into consideration the aforementioned speaker sensitivity or the number of speakers you're using.

Size, weight, and price not withstanding, I've always been in the camp that more power is usually better than less power, at least when talking solid-state; however, I think that the wisdom of you always need 4x the power of your guitarist is a bit extreme for every situation - and it does get touted as almost a universal law at times on here.

While it's just an anecdotal example, I played a gig about a month ago in which I ran my Mesa 400+ into one of my Berg AE410s. My guitarist was using his Mesa Simul-class 2:90 power amp into two of his 4x12 rectifier cabinets. We had house sound. With about a hundred watts more and one cabinet less than my guitarist, I had no problem at all being loud enough. In fact, I had to turn down a little after soundcheck. I think the Master on my Mesa was around 2 or 3. Again, that's an anecdotal example, but the wisdom that you automatically need 400 watts because your guitarist has 100 watts is a bit shortsighted. You may in fact need those 400 watts, but that doesn't apply to every person's situation, despite the 4-fold wisdom being touted as almost a universal law.

Let the games begin (I have a feeling this will either be an epic thread or get two replies and be on page five by tomorrow afternoon. ).

[Munjibunga]

Yeah, well, just because I have a 900-watt head doesn't mean I'm always going to be pushing it. But if the guitar player starts pushing his 100 watts, I might. And four-fold is low. Ten-fold is about right.

[BurningSkies]

I don't see it. My guitar players either use 30w amps or occasionally borrow my 135w Fender twin.

4x30= 120w
4x135= 540w

That's like loose change.

[LiquidMidnight]

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

Yeah, well, just because I have a 900-watt head doesn't mean I'm always going to be pushing it. But if the guitar player starts pushing his 100 watts, I might. And four-fold is low. Ten-fold is about right.

Oh, it's nice to have power on tap; I'm not aruging that. I'm arguing against the wisdom that you always need that power on tap just because you have a guitarist with X amount of power in his or her amp.

[Joe Louvar]

What was the question again?

[johnk_10]

i set my volume according to the drummer, not the guitarist.

[pie_man_25]

Originally Posted by LiquidMidnight

Oh, it's nice to have power on tap; I'm not aruging that. I'm arguing against the wisdom that you always need that power on tap just because you have a guitarist with X amount of power in his or her amp.

well, to put it bluntly, both guitarists in my band have about 40 watts in their amps with 212s, and neither of them push them too hard, and I'm having a hard time keeping up with them using 125 watts and 410s (closer to 3 times the power that they're using), so I can really see why this wisdom is recommended.

I generally find that the bigger the amps the guitarist is using, the louder they're going to be(at least in a rock/metal context). Does a metal guitarist really need to crank a 100 watt marshall all the time? no, not really, but he's probably going to more often than not - even though he'd be just as good with a 212 combo that pushes out half that power. I've been to plenty of shows where the guitarist's amps were turned up so high that you could just barely hear the drummer over them - in a small basement bar in which were less than 20 people. The guitarists had 100watt halfstacks with 412s, the bassists had SVT-CLs and ampeg 810s, and the bassist couldn't keep up with them either. so, yeah, 4 times the power seems appropriate to me.

[LiquidMidnight]

Originally Posted by pie_man_25

I generally find that the bigger the amps the guitarist is using, the louder they're going to be(at least in a rock/metal context). Does a metal guitarist really need to crank a 100 watt marshall all the time? no, not really, but he's probably going to more often than not - even though he'd be just as good with a 212 combo that pushes out half that power. I've been to plenty of shows where the guitarist's amps were turned up so high that you could just barely hear the drummer over them - in a small basement bar in which were less than 20 people. The guitarists had 100watt halfstacks with 412s, the bassists had SVT-CLs and ampeg 810s, and the bassist couldn't keep up with them either. so, yeah, 4 times the power seems appropriate to me.

But as I stated earlier, not every guitarist is obnoxiously loud. Maybe I'm a bit biased, but I have a sinking suspcision that many of those guitar players had smilie-faced EQs in addition to obnoxious volume. In those situations, a bass player throwing more watts isn't going do much other than create more boom.

[dalahorse]

Originally Posted by LiquidMidnight

We had house sound.

Done.

Who knows how the house was mixed or what the amp, crossover, etc. setup was like.

[LiquidMidnight]

Originally Posted by dalahorse

Done.

Who knows how the house was mixed or what the amp, crossover, etc. setup was like.

What's that have to do with anything? I think it was obvious I was talking about stage volume.

But I've played without FOH support plenty of times with similar setups if it matters.

[dalahorse]

My point is that you stand in front of you rig, mostly. And when you don't, there are stage monitors to make up the difference.

[Downunderwonder]

What was the question again?

[Downunderwonder]

I wouldn't like to be without 200W when guitarist has a 50W marshall stack.

[BurningSkies]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

What was the question again?

Do you like fudge?

[musicman666]

wpojfc fopfk oekopk v vjio oeop ';.
v
'lp[lep[popkrpojkvp yup!

[MysticMichael]

Originally Posted by LiquidMidnight

Again, that's an anecdotal example, but the wisdom that you automatically need 400 watts because your guitarist has 100 watts is a bit shortsighted. You may in fact need those 400 watts, but that doesn't apply to every person's situation, despite the 4-fold wisdom being touted as almost a universal law.

OK, fine. So the rule of thumb (or rule of fingertips, or rule of pick) is just a broad generalization that doesn't automatically apply in every case. Got it.

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

Yeah, well, just because I have a 900-watt head doesn't mean I'm always going to be pushing it. But if the guitar player starts pushing his 100 watts, I might. And four-fold is low. Ten-fold is about right.

I'm down wit dat...

MM

[BigDaddyMick]

Originally Posted by BurningSkies

Do you like fudge?

Must. Eat. Fudge.

[dspellman]

Originally Posted by BurningSkies

Do you like fudge?

Why yes, thank you. Darkish chocolate and walnuts will do nicely.

[Gearhead17]

It really all comes down to acoustics. Great bass rigs can be reduced to garbage in rooms with bad acoustics. Terrible rigs can sound wonderful in with great acoustics. It also comes down what tone the bass player is putting out with the band they are playing in. Putting out a tone that is very similar to what the rest sound like? You will blend in. Put out a tone DISTINCTLY different, you will cut through and be heard. It's all about frequency slotting.

All this talk about watts, tube, solid state, power sections, speakers and so on can easily be reduced to "mumbo jumbo" in a room with bad acoustics or a band with no sense of frequency slotting.

[dspellman]

Originally Posted by LiquidMidnight

...and say that you should always mix speaker sizes for optimal performance, never plug in a head that is rated less than your cabinet, remind everyone that power handling rather than sensitivity is more important regarding volume, tube watts are different than solid-state watts, and insist that neo drivers have an intrinsic tonal difference as compared to ceramic drivers.



In all seriousness, there is something I see get quoted over and over here that I think is taken a bit to an extreme and loses its validity. What I'm talking about is the notion that you have to "match" the power handling of your guitarist in order to be heard - I believe 4-fold is the number often quoted for power.

I think this rule of thumb is problematic for a number of reasons. First, and most saliently, it assumes that just because your guitarist(s) have a certain amount of power on tap in their amp that they are using it. Just because your guitar player has a 100 watt Marshall doesn't mean they're always going to be pushing 100 watts. Believe it or not, there are guitarists who don't blast their rigs at eardrum rupturing volumes. Second, it also doesn't take into consideration the aforementioned speaker sensitivity or the number of speakers you're using.

Size, weight, and price not withstanding, I've always been in the camp that more power is usually better than less power, at least when talking solid-state; however, I think that the wisdom of you always need 4x the power of your guitarist is a bit extreme for every situation - and it does get touted as almost a universal law at times on here.

While it's just an anecdotal example, I played a gig about a month ago in which I ran my Mesa 400+ into one of my Berg AE410s. My guitarist was using his Mesa Simul-class 2:90 power amp into two of his 4x12 rectifier cabinets. We had house sound. With about a hundred watts more and one cabinet less than my guitarist, I had no problem at all being loud enough. In fact, I had to turn down a little after soundcheck. I think the Master on my Mesa was around 2 or 3. Again, that's an anecdotal example, but the wisdom that you automatically need 400 watts because your guitarist has 100 watts is a bit shortsighted. You may in fact need those 400 watts, but that doesn't apply to every person's situation, despite the 4-fold wisdom being touted as almost a universal law.

Let the games begin (I have a feeling this will either be an epic thread or get two replies and be on page five by tomorrow afternoon. ).

I'm sorry, I mostly heard blah blah blah blah four times the power blah blah. Nothing is a universal law when there are black holes out there and the entire Kardashian family makes millions by being famous for Kim getting naked once in a while while exclaiming that she's "not that kind of girl."

Where was that fudge?