I must disagree with the "Don't mix speaker sizes people"

[dhsierra1]

Originally Posted by walterw

oh, and fifteens rule.

isn't it self-evident?

[dhsierra1]

Originally Posted by DigitalMan

Just a retort to the "flat earth" comment that preceded it. It's a vague reference to tyranny of the masses implying that the comment was made in the context of someone who feels free to cast insults to the minority due to the comfort of being in the majority. Minority and majority being sides of the debate in this case.

careful, please, that can be taken as a racist remark and I'm not trying to be PC here.

[will33]

[JimmyM]

[Big Brother]

The question can be reasonably answered with an SPL meter for any combination of cabs in any room. Just send a tone to your amp and walk around to find the dead spots.

One could easily map any room with each cab individually and then two or more together to compare results and see where sound levels change as a result.

This seems too easy, I sense a trap...

[walterw]

i dunno, it might be about differences in tone as much as SPL.

also, even then i'm not sure you're going to always get a result of "see, a big hole at 150Hz 30° off-axis, those mixed cabs suck!"

after all, how much of the sound in the room is coming from the PA vs. the bass cabinets anyway? from room reflections?

we're just talking in general here, that good matched boxes usually work better for a strong, even bass tone.

[makohund]

Wow, pop out for a minute and it's all



and





Anywho...

DigitalMan acknowledged the benefits of line arrays, and that sort of PA's superiority in filling a room with even sound. Also the benefits of having a that sort of PA performing the job of a bass rig.

So a bass rig with similar performance characteristics should also be a good thing. Right? Who doesn't want their rig to be heard well, everywhere they intend it to be heard?

Now about tone. The idea that "colored cabs/speakers" cannot perform that way has been struck down, I think. Doesn't matter if they're colored... line 'em up properly, and they'll put out that colored sound all the same.

It seems to boil down to "bass speakers performing like a line array = a good thing".

OK... a line array requires matching drivers, or at least drivers that behave the same within the frequencies they producing, in order to deliver the goods. Doesn't it?

Ergo, to get the above benefits in a bass rig, one has to use matching drivers. Non-matching drivers within the same frequency ranges might sound good in some places, but cannot be made to perform like a line array, and will not be able to deliver that kind of even, room-filling performance.

Am I wrong?

So to truly answer his question about mixed vs matched, he needs to look closely into why matched drivers can work like a line array, and mixed can not. Or a guru needs to explain to me that I've got it all wrong. Either would be welcome.

[Febs]

Originally Posted by DigitalMan

Hopefully however much you disagree with my opinion you can infer from the content of my posts that this is not an exercise in trolling. I don't think you would ask that same question to anyone in person without understanding the implications are negative. I don't think anyone here needs to discuss credentials in order to share opinions and ask questions.

This is a disingenuous position, considering that you yourself raised the issue of credentials earlier in the thread.

Originally Posted by DigitalMan

No one here is actually qualified to write a scientifically accepted and peer-reviewed paper regarding the topic.

Originally Posted by DigitalMan

My point is that science is not the right arena for this discussion, and that claiming science on your side is no way to win a debate. Many of you fine folk are well educated and have great trade skills regarding the creation of enclosures and mixing live sound. The tools that you use would not exist without a great deal of science. That connection unfortunately does not make anyone a scientist. Going to a university and getting a degree in science does.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by Febs

This is a disingenuous position, considering that you yourself raised the issue of credentials earlier in the thread.

Yes, odd how when a reply to a given question results in a denial of the relevance of said question even though it was posed by him. Wanting to eat and have his cake at the same time does he.

No one here is actually qualified to write a scientifically accepted and peer-reviewed paper regarding the topic.
Many of you fine folk are well educated and have great trade skills regarding the creation of enclosures and mixing live sound. The tools that you use would not exist without a great deal of science. That connection unfortunately does not make anyone a scientist. Going to a university and getting a degree in science does.

I hold an M.S. in Acoustical Engineering, am an AES Full Member, have technical publishing credits numbering in the hundreds, own my own acoustical engineering business, am on the masthead of AudioXpress Magazine (alongside Vance Dickason and a dozen other top names in the field). And I've played electric bass professionally and continuously since 1965. But somehow I doubt that will satisfy his requirement, which will no doubt change before he finishes reading this post.

[RickenBoogie]

Excellent post^. I'm doing my level-headed best to stay out of these debates, as the argument, to me, is pointless. However, when a young player comes here asking "which cabs" for this or that, I will continue to give the best advice possible, matched cabs will always outperform a mixed bag. The continual drivel from certain members who seem to be more looking for an argument than anything else shall be ignored from now on.

[BurningSkies]

Originally Posted by dhsierra1

careful, please, that can be taken as a racist remark and I'm not trying to be PC here.

You noticed that I just let it be and didn't touch it.

And quite funny as well, since those who are suggesting that people use the knowledge we now have as a basis for our rigs are BY FAR the minority, rather than the masses, who have been happily using whatever the industry has been giving them for decades. Mostly because many have not been exposed to some of the underlying acoustic truths, or have had access to the technology that uses it to good advantage.

That, and I tend to reject ad hominem attacks as such anyway.

I will stand by my assertion that if you know and understand the science, if a preponderance of anecdotal evidence backs that science up, and you choose to ignore it, it is akin to pretending the world is flat. That doesn't say that all those who mix rigs are ignoring it, they may just not be in a position to do otherwise, or like what they hear, given the trade offs in real world performance.

[Joe Louvar]

Originally Posted by dhsierra1

OK, I'm going to put my stake in the ground here and say my favorite 15s are JBL D140F's with EVM-15Bs my second favorite.

What say y'all? What are some other favorites?

JBL, EV, Peavey, Eminence, GK 15s, etc,


~ 15s Rule ~

[Mr. Foxen]

Originally Posted by RickenBoogie

the best advice possible, matched cabs will always outperform a mixed bag.

I think the better way of putting it is 'matched cabs are more predictable' because when someone is after advice on what to get, you can only work from prediction. This covers the subjective experience of a good sounding mixed rig, it isn't predicted to be so, it already is.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by RickenBoogie

The continual drivel from certain members who seem to be more looking for an argument than anything else shall be ignored from now on.

I just put the worst offender on my Iggy list and the page count of the thread dropped by 20%.

[Joe Louvar]

Hey, no way - I though I was your #1 offerender on your Iggy list.

[arai]

Ignore lists never work out

[Joe Louvar]

Originally Posted by starmann

I definitely disagree

btw, those grills sure would be fun to paint.

[Joe Louvar]

It's not fair - I'm bummed out that I'm not #1 on BFM's list anymore, lol.

[makohund]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

I hold an M.S. in Acoustical Engineering, am an AES Full Member, have technical publishing credits numbering in the hundreds, own my own acoustical engineering business, am on the masthead of AudioXpress Magazine (alongside Vance Dickason and a dozen other top names in the field). And I've played electric bass professionally and continuously since 1965.

And in this corner, representing the other end of the credential spectrum...

I'm just a dumb 'ol former Jarhead, with not a single degree or additional credential to my name. Only been playing since '91, and it would be a serious stretch if I attempted to call much of it "professional".

Somehow I manage to be able to read, and even grok things occasionally.

[dhsierra1]

Originally Posted by BurningSkies

You noticed that I just let it be and didn't touch it.

And quite funny as well, since those who are suggesting that people use the knowledge we now have as a basis for our rigs are BY FAR the minority, rather than the masses, who have been happily using whatever the industry has been giving them for decades. Mostly because many have not been exposed to some of the underlying acoustic truths, or have had access to the technology that uses it to good advantage.

That, and I tend to reject ad hominem attacks as such anyway.

that's because you have more patience and self-restraint than I do

I will stand by my assertion that if you know and understand the science, if a preponderance of anecdotal evidence backs that science up, and you choose to ignore it, it is akin to pretending the world is flat. That doesn't say that all those who mix rigs are ignoring it, they may just not be in a position to do otherwise, or like what they hear, given the trade offs in real world performance.

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