I need more volume

jayhoward · #1 08-24-2011, 08:43 PM

I know this issue comes up a lot on TB, but bear with me.

I play with two loud guitarists and a loud drummer. In rehearsals we play loud enough that you probably could talk but you'd need to shout. We play too loud, really, and I'm always asking them to turn down. Anyway, I can play loud enough to be heard in the mix, but I'm maxing out. I want to have some extra headroom available, and I have none.

I play an Ashdown MAG 600 evo II (rated at 575W RVS at 4 ohms) running through two Eden 210XLT cabs (8 ohms each with power handling of 350W RMS). On the head I have the "input" knob turned up high enough that I'm going into the red with each note I play, so I feel I've maxed out my headroom there (even though I do have a little more room to boost the input via the EQ which is wired pre on the Ashdown). My "output" knob is maxed out.

Given my rig, why do I not have any headroom? Shouldn't I be absolutely ridiculously loud, or am I just getting what my rig can offer?

Thanks.

Mirios · #2 08-24-2011, 08:46 PM

How is your rig eq'd? Also how are the guitar players amps eq'd? Is it a small room?

WingKL · #3 08-24-2011, 08:50 PM

Are you stacking your cabs vertically so you can hear your mids better?

Mirios · #4 08-24-2011, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WingKL

Are you stacking your cabs vertically so you can hear your mids better?

Oh good one I forgot to ask that.

MK1 · #5 08-24-2011, 08:51 PM

How are your cabs stacked? You'll hear yourself a lot better if you have them stacked vertically.

Edit: WingKL beat me to it.

Gearhead17 · #6 08-24-2011, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MK1

How are your cabs stacked? You'll hear yourself a lot better if you have them stacked vertically.

Trust me, I do it all the time and it works great! Bass Guitar knobs - where are they at?

jayhoward · #7 08-25-2011, 06:14 AM

Thanks everyone for the ideas.

Room is about 25-by-25 feet made of cinder block walls with a thin carpet floor. I know, nice acoustics. I imagine the high-ends are bouncing around a bit.

One guitarist is pretty high on treble, the other has more of a full sound.

My amp is EQ'd so bass and low-mid are about 1:00, and mid, high-mid, and treble are about 2:00. As I understand it, the amp is wired such that turning up the EQ effectively turns up the input, so even though I have EQ headroom this would push me further into the red.

The two bass guitar volume knobs on my MIM Jazz are pretty much turned up all the way, but I roll them each back just a touch. Tone control on the bass is about midway.

My cabs are stacked horizontally so they are like a 410 setup. I haven't tried stacking them vertically so it's one single column of 10s, but that's not a bad thought. I've read up on the pros and cons of that, and maybe it's worth a try.

tabdog · #8 08-25-2011, 08:10 AM

Roll off the bass on the EQ.

That will give you more head room.

If you play around with it more, you
may find some sounds you like with
out so much bass.

Lots of bass is OK, but the mid range
gives character.

Tabdog

**251** · #9 08-25-2011, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayhoward

I know this issue comes up a lot on TB, but bear with me.

I play with two loud guitarists and a loud drummer. In rehearsals we play loud enough that you probably could talk but you'd need to shout. We play too loud, really, and I'm always asking them to turn down. Anyway, I can play loud enough to be heard in the mix, but I'm maxing out. I want to have some extra headroom available, and I have none.

I play an Ashdown MAG 600 evo II (rated at 575W RVS at 4 ohms) running through two Eden 210XLT cabs (8 ohms each with power handling of 350W RMS). On the head I have the "input" knob turned up high enough that I'm going into the red with each note I play, so I feel I've maxed out my headroom there (even though I do have a little more room to boost the input via the EQ which is wired pre on the Ashdown). My "output" knob is maxed out.

Given my rig, why do I not have any headroom? Shouldn't I be absolutely ridiculously loud, or am I just getting what my rig can offer?

Thanks.

I just saw/heard KC & the Sunshine Band, open air. From 200 feet away, if the kick drum was active, the only other sound was voices & horns. No guitars, no keys, no percussion, very little from the rest of the drum set. When the drummer's right foot got a rest, the band was actually there. The kick drowned out everything below about 500 or 600 Hz.

Clearly, that is what the sound panel operator (engineer is not the correct title here) was told to do. If that is your situation I think you are SOL. The mix is the solution, not the problem.

Robby Hoinsky · #10 08-25-2011, 09:09 AM

The bands in hell with long forks starve, the bands in heaven with long forks feed each other.

The problem is balance. I guarantee that if you guys are drowning out out an Eden 410 with a 600 watt Ashdown that you are too loud. Could it be that you are loud enough but YOU want you to be louder? If that is not the case, then maybe get a third party to lend an ear and give some opinion on your overall sound. I've done sound for a lot of bands and the difference between the pro ones and the not-quite pro bands is that the pro bands think about the overall sound and in the not-quite pro bands everyone tries to be louder than everyone else.

Robby

Gearhead17 · #11 08-25-2011, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayhoward

Thanks everyone for the ideas.

Room is about 25-by-25 feet made of cinder block walls with a thin carpet floor. I know, nice acoustics. I imagine the high-ends are bouncing around a bit.

My cabs are stacked horizontally so they are like a 410 setup. I haven't tried stacking them vertically so it's one single column of 10s, but that's not a bad thought. I've read up on the pros and cons of that, and maybe it's worth a try.

Cinder block walls make everything difficult! Been there, done that. It is very difficult to win in that situation. Some of the best bass rigs you can buy will sound like garbage because the acoustics in that room make it tough for your bass tone to bounce around. If you were in a different room, you would probably be just fine with your current settings.

Roll back the bass knob to the 10:00 position and leave the other controls alone. Try the vertical stacking and you will be good to go. Your passive Mexican Fender - you can crank the knobs all the way up without an issue.

Russell L · #12 08-25-2011, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 251

I just saw/heard KC & the Sunshine Band, open air. From 200 feet away, if the kick drum was active, the only other sound was voices & horns. No guitars, no keys, no percussion, very little from the rest of the drum set. When the drummer's right foot got a rest, the band was actually there. The kick drowned out everything below about 500 or 600 Hz.

Clearly, that is what the sound panel operator (engineer is not the correct title here) was told to do. If that is your situation I think you are SOL. The mix is the solution, not the problem.

That is exactly what happens in one band I am helping out. Can't hear a thing coming out of my amp because of the kick. I even stopped playing on one song and no one even noticed.

To the OP---because of poor sound "engineering" and WAY too loud stage volume, I have started complaining, no matter which band I'm with. I have come to the point that I am sick and tired of mediocrity. If it's too loud, I don't wanna play anymore. If it's just bad balance, the same. I especially will complain when practice is too loud. That's one time when it really doesn't have to be.

Dustin Teel · #13 08-25-2011, 12:42 PM

I vote more speakers. Sure, it would be easier to tell the guitards to turn down.

But that would involve guitarists being reasonable, intelligent, understanding people.

Ha.

Methinks you could swap one of the 2x10s for a 4x10 and run 6x10s. That would be a very noticable volume increase.

Bassmec · #14 08-25-2011, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dustin Teel

I vote more speakers. Sure, it would be easier to tell the guitards to turn down.

But that would involve guitarists being reasonable, intelligent, understanding people.

Ha.

Methinks you could swap one of the 2x10s for a 4x10 and run 6x10s. That would be a very noticable volume increase.

The drivers in the 8 ohm 2 x 10XLT's are going to be sixteen ohms each so you need to find an all in parallel 4 ohm cab if its a 4X10, another option is another 2 X 10XLT if the amp is 2 ohms stable is the trick for both these options as thats 2.66 ohms total.

lokikallas · #15 08-25-2011, 02:26 PM

Passive tone controls are just to cut. I would leave all my knobs on the bass wide open and use the amp for tone.

Ric5 · #16 08-25-2011, 02:35 PM

When I play with bands that are too loud sometimes I turn way down and see how long it takes them to notice.

jayhoward · #17 08-25-2011, 05:46 PM

Many thanks for the great ideas. Here's what the TB community has suggested (roughly in order of endorsement):

1. Stack cabs vertically to hear the mids better.

2. Roll the bass off the EQ to gain more headroom. In addition, keep all volume and tone knobs maxed out on the bass.

3. Work on getting a better mix in the band (in other words, have the guitards turn down).

4. Go for another pair of 10's to boost volume.

5. Try a rehearsal room without bad acoustics.

All good ideas, and only one of them requires spending money.

Am I missing anything?

JH

Rockmusician · #18 08-25-2011, 05:59 PM

You have more then enough power. Try adjusting your eq and asking the guitarists to turn down. There is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't be able to hear yourself.

staindbass · #19 08-25-2011, 07:19 PM

the power is fine, if you had 3 -15 inch speakers you would probably be happy.

u84six · #20 08-25-2011, 09:05 PM

I'm thinking that the two cabs isn't even as loud as a 410 since the single enclosure can make quite a difference. If the band is really THAT loud, maybe you should consider selling the 2 cabs and get either a 610, or even an 810 which some people around here think is the standard for a rock bassist. Pick up a pair of ear plugs and you'll never worry about volume again.