I think I'm in love...

[Bennet Pullen]

With a Sadowsky SA200

I recently had the chance to borrow Spencer!'s SA200 to use on a recording and it's been haunting me ever since. I find myself just staring off into space reliving every moment we had together. I wake up in the middle of the night calling out her name. It's bad.

So what do I do now? It's been over a year since one has been up for sale, and who knows when another one will be. Is there anything out there that's similar? Anything that can get close to that amazing tone? Has anybody looked into having one of these cloned by a custom amp builder? Does anybody have one sitting around they would sell me?

Just for some background I've always been a solid state guy so I'm not looking for just another all tube head. There's something about that SA200 that lets it punch and sparkle like the best solid state amps but still get that wonderful grind and warmth like a good tube amp.

[tombowlus]

Yeah, the SA200 still tops the list of my favorite heads, too. My advice is be patient, and then pounce when one next becomes available.

[silky smoove]

I saw you were using that on James' album. Sounds like it went pretty well. Any idea on when that will be out. You and James really lay it down and I'm excited to hear it.

As for the SA200... Well... Good luck on the search. Maybe you could fly out to New York and beg Roger to pump out a few more units.

[BbbyBld]

There's something about that SA200 that lets it punch and sparkle like the best solid state amps but still get that wonderful grind and warmth like a good tube amp.

I think a lot of that comes from the EL34 power tubes. That quality you're describing is exactly why I like them in bass amps.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Bennet Pullen

With a Sadowsky SA200

I recently had the chance to borrow Spencer!'s SA200 to use on a recording and it's been haunting me ever since. I find myself just staring off into space reliving every moment we had together. I wake up in the middle of the night calling out her name. It's bad.

So what do I do now? It's been over a year since one has been up for sale, and who knows when another one will be. Is there anything out there that's similar? Anything that can get close to that amazing tone? Has anybody looked into having one of these cloned by a custom amp builder? Does anybody have one sitting around they would sell me?

Just for some background I've always been a solid state guy so I'm not looking for just another all tube head. There's something about that SA200 that lets it punch and sparkle like the best solid state amps but still get that wonderful grind and warmth like a good tube amp.

I always describe that amp as 'the only tube amp I don't hate' Nice amp!

There are at least a few SA200 owners who are quite pleased with the Genz Streamliner, which has that kind of 'modern all tube' vibe to it. I also hear quite a bit of similarity. If you are really pushing the SA200 to break up, the Streamliner will sound quite a bit different. However, if you like the lower volume, clean tone of the SA200, the Streamliner900 will get you much of the way there, and it will be a LOT louder!

Just FYI, since the probability of finding an SA200 for sale used is pretty slim.

[Bennet Pullen]

Originally Posted by tombowlus

Yeah, the SA200 still tops the list of my favorite heads, too. My advice is be patient, and then pounce when one next becomes available.

Argh but patience is so hard

Originally Posted by silky smoove

I saw you were using that on James' album. Sounds like it went pretty well. Any idea on when that will be out. You and James really lay it down and I'm excited to hear it.

Yeah the session went awesome. I'm not sure when the whole thing will be done because only drums and bass are completed so far.

Originally Posted by BbbyBld

I think a lot of that comes from the EL34 power tubes. That quality you're describing is exactly why I like them in bass amps.

Hmmm. What are some other bass amps that use EL34s? I'm really a complete noob at tube amps.

Originally Posted by KJung

I always describe that amp as 'the only tube amp I don't hate' Nice amp!

There are at least a few SA200 owners who are quite pleased with the Genz Streamliner, which has that kind of 'modern all tube' vibe to it. I also hear quite a bit of similarity. If you are really pushing the SA200 to break up, the Streamliner will sound quite a bit different. However, if you like the lower volume, clean tone of the SA200, the Streamliner900 will get you much of the way there, and it will be a LOT louder!

Just FYI, since the probability of finding an SA200 for sale used is pretty slim.

I'll have to get some more play time with a Streamliner. I got to gig one at a jam a couple weeks ago and it seemed like it had those big flabby lows that I don't like in tube amps and that overly clicky ampeg style treble. Then again it was in a known bad room, and plugged into cabs I'm not familiar with so who knows.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Bennet Pullen

I'll have to get some more play time with a Streamliner. I got to gig one at a jam a couple weeks ago and it seemed like it had those big flabby lows that I don't like in tube amps and that overly clicky ampeg style treble. Then again it was in a known bad room, and plugged into cabs I'm not familiar with so who knows.

The EQ is very interactive, just like on a tube amp. Yes, if you kind of set everything flat, it can get a bit tubby, especially with some cabs. However, if you spend a little time with the gain structure, and also realize that the treble control is unique and acts more like a passive tone control, it is a pretty amazing box. A touch of dial back on the bass knob, and a significant cut on the treble really brings out the articulation.

Anyway, just responding to your 'is there anything else like that tone out there'. Again, there are at least a couple SA200 owners who have gotten pretty close with it!

Good luck!

[Bennet Pullen]

Originally Posted by KJung

The EQ is very interactive, just like on a tube amp. Yes, if you kind of set everything flat, it can get a bit tubby, especially with some cabs. However, if you spend a little time with the gain structure, and also realize that the treble control is unique and acts more like a passive tone control, it is a pretty amazing box. A touch of dial back on the bass knob, and a significant cut on the treble really brings out the articulation.

Anyway, just responding to your 'is there anything else like that tone out there'. Again, there are at least a couple SA200 owners who have gotten pretty close with it!

Good luck!

Thanks I certainly appreciate the suggestions! Maybe I can get my friend's Streamliner and Spencer!'s SA200 together and do a shootout of sorts. That would be pretty cool and probably highly informative.

[silky smoove]

The answer is obvious. Break into Spencer's house, grab the amp and run off into the night, laughing all the way.

...This will of course lead to your life on the lamb as they say. Nothing but you with a hobo pack on a stick and a pocket full of dreams... Well... That and the SA200 and your Nordy. You'll travel from town to town playing gigs, getting into adventures. Sort of like Kane from Kung-Fu, except that it will be Bennet from Bass-Fu...

[JimmyM]

Where's Spencer been lately? Haven't seen him on here in a while.

[Munjibunga]

Originally Posted by KJung

I always describe that amp as 'the only tube amp I don't hate' Nice amp!

There are at least a few SA200 owners who are quite pleased with the Genz Streamliner, which has that kind of 'modern all tube' vibe to it. I also hear quite a bit of similarity. If you are really pushing the SA200 to break up, the Streamliner will sound quite a bit different. However, if you like the lower volume, clean tone of the SA200, the Streamliner900 will get you much of the way there, and it will be a LOT louder!

Just FYI, since the probability of finding an SA200 for sale used is pretty slim.

Ken, how does the DB750/751 stack up against the SA200, tone-wise?

[babebambi]

the DB750/751 is very different from the SA200
The DB750/751 is a brute, and lacks the mid range complexity of the SA
where the DB750/751 is bass and low-mid dominating, the SA200 is much more balanced

a much closer comparison to the SA200 in the Aguilar family would be the DB680

IMO, the Streamliner is closer to the DB750/751 rather than the SA200

[KJung]

Originally Posted by babebambi

the DB750/751 is very different from the SA200
The DB750/751 is a brute, and lacks the mid range complexity of the SA
where the DB750/751 is bass and low-mid dominating, the SA200 is much more balanced

a much closer comparison to the SA200 in the Aguilar family would be the DB680

IMO, the Streamliner is closer to the DB750/751 rather than the SA200

The Streamliner can do a DB750 vibe pretty well (I have not played the 751). The Streamliner tone controls are WAY more powerful than the DB though, and you can get a very woody, complex mid response out of the amp also, and it does bring to mind that complexity of the SA200. Of course, once you push the power tubes of the SA200, all bets are off... the Streamliner will break up if you choose to really push the gain, but not in the same way.

All amps sound different, of course, but the Streamliner would most likely make at least some DB750 fans pretty happy, and also those who like the low volume/clean tone of the SA200 but need a lot more volume. Again, if you are pushing and grinding the SA200, that is a unique tone (just like the pushed tone of an SVT is unique to that amp).

IMO and a bit of IME! All three amps will do things the others won't though.


Edit: One thing that is similar with all three of these amps is that they are best all treated as 'all tube heads' when deciding on cab matching. By this, I mean that each head can benefit from a tightly voiced cab to control the big low end each of these heads is capable of. The DB750 and Streamliner don't have the 'efficiency' limitation that the SA200 has, due to the big power sections, but all those amps have that bit of 'bloom' down low that many consider a tonal characteristic of an all tube amp.

[tombowlus]

Originally Posted by babebambi

the DB750/751 is very different from the SA200
The DB750/751 is a brute, and lacks the mid range complexity of the SA
where the DB750/751 is bass and low-mid dominating, the SA200 is much more balanced

a much closer comparison to the SA200 in the Aguilar family would be the DB680

IMO, the Streamliner is closer to the DB750/751 rather than the SA200

+1 The DB359 is the closest Aguilar head, IME/IMHO, to the SA200. I was in love with my 359, up until I A/B'd it with my SA200. As nice as the DB359 sounded, the SA200 could do everything the 359 could, and then some. So I sold it. But then I missed it, and I bought a second 359 (in my defense, it was going for a song on ebay, and I couldn't resist). However, after playing the SA200 right next to it, I sold that one, too.

The complexity in the mids, and the great range of gain/tone controls make the SA200 a real winner, IMHO.

[Bennet Pullen]

Originally Posted by tombowlus

+1 The DB359 is the closest Aguilar head, IME/IMHO, to the SA200. I was in love with my 359, up until I A/B'd it with my SA200. As nice as the DB359 sounded, the SA200 could do everything the 359 could, and then some. So I sold it. But then I missed it, and I bought a second 359 (in my defense, it was going for a song on ebay, and I couldn't resist). However, after playing the SA200 right next to it, I sold that one, too.

The complexity in the mids, and the great range of gain/tone controls make the SA200 a real winner, IMHO.

So what in your opinion is the closest non-Aguilar head to the SA200? I'm not necessarily worried about the tube "feel" of the amp because the SA200 has far less of that than the other tube amps I've played through anyway. I do really want the overall tone profile though. Those very present but still sweet/smooth highs, complex midrange and well controlled bass. If I could get the overdrive that would be awesome as well but I could live without it for everything else.

I've never heard one but I imagine a glockenklang heart rock as similar-ish. Is that way off base?

[tombowlus]

Originally Posted by Bennet Pullen

So what in your opinion is the closest non-Aguilar head to the SA200? I'm not necessarily worried about the tube "feel" of the amp because the SA200 has far less of that than the other tube amps I've played through anyway. I do really want the overall tone profile though. Those very present but still sweet/smooth highs, complex midrange and well controlled bass. If I could get the overdrive that would be awesome as well but I could live without it for everything else.

I've never heard one but I imagine a glockenklang heart rock as similar-ish. Is that way off base?

There really isn't any one other that comes close enough for me to say it's closer to an SA200 than another amp, though of course the Eden WT300 (Eden's older all-tube head, not the newer model) was also designed by Dolf Koch, and it has some similarities, but plenty of differences, too. Of course, there are a few Koch brand tube bass heads out there, as well, which are probably also in the ballpark.

I know that Roger Hart used the SA200 as part of defining the target tone for the Genz-Benz Streamliner, and while I suppose there are again some similarities, I can think of a dozen or more other heads which are just as close (and just as far) from the tone of the SA200. The Mesa/Boogie WalkAbout and Bass 400, Trace Elliot VA400, and Reeves C225 all come to mind.

IME/IMHO, the SA200 is a hard target to hit. Even if you can cop one of its tones, it's gonna be really tough to cover all that it can do.

YMMV, of course.

[Spencer!]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Where's Spencer been lately? Haven't seen him on here in a while.

I've been busy buying 810 cabs on Amazon in the middle of the night.

[Spencer!]

Originally Posted by babebambi

a much closer comparison to the SA200 in the Aguilar family would be the DB680

I've got a DB680 (albeit with a couple microphonic 12AX7's) that I ran into the effects return of the SA200 the last time Bennet was over. It sounded really good, but really different. I dig the DB680 because it's got the hybrid tube/solid state thing going on for the parametric mids, although it can't really dial in the same sound as the passive EQ on the SA200. The real magic on the Sadowsky is the gain staging and the clean/fat switch.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Spencer!

I've been busy buying 810 cabs on Amazon in the middle of the night.

Hey man, stirke while the iron's hot!

[Spencer!]

Originally Posted by tombowlus

+1 The DB359 is the closest Aguilar head, IME/IMHO, to the SA200. I was in love with my 359, up until I A/B'd it with my SA200. As nice as the DB359 sounded, the SA200 could do everything the 359 could, and then some. So I sold it. But then I missed it, and I bought a second 359 (in my defense, it was going for a song on ebay, and I couldn't resist). However, after playing the SA200 right next to it, I sold that one, too.

I also found that the Aguilar 728 power amp had a similar feel to the SA200 (it also used a toroidal output transformer), but the sound was obviously largely dependent on the preamp you put in front of it.