I wanted to add to the 4x10 goes lower than a 15" debate

[father of fires]

I was looking at the new Ampeg neo cabs and I noticed something.

The 15" goes lower than the 4x10"!!!

See here:

http://www.ampeg.com/products/proneo...hlf/index.html

and here:

http://www.ampeg.com/products/proneo...hlf/index.html

The 15" goes down to 35hz and the 4x10" only goes to 45hz.

Hell, even the classic 410HLF only goes to 48hz!

I may be reading this stuff wrong but it seems to me that if I wanted to build a rig to handle super lows, wouldn't I be better off with the 15"?

[PaulNYC]

There are no spl charts. All you are looking st is marketing. Unless too know the dB at each frequency, you need to hear to compare.

[father of fires]

Originally Posted by PaulNYC

There are no spl charts. All you are looking st is marketing. Unless too know the dB at each frequency, you need to hear to compare.

Are you saying that Ampeg has skewed the data?

Or, are you saying that we can't be for sure without all the data but it is possible?

[Zooberwerx]

Originally Posted by father of fires

Are you saying that Ampeg has skewed the data?

Or, are you saying that we can't be for sure without all the data but it is possible?

Data has been omitted, specifically the SPL charts which denote the roll-off at certain frequencies. Given the performance of like enclosures, I doubt very much if the cab is as efficient at 35 hz as it is at 45 hz.

Riis

[wcriley]

What happens above and below the quoted low end numbers is very important to the perceived low end of a cab. Does it roll off gradually or drop like a rock? Is there a big hump before the roll off? A response chart would show that.

[xed]

Originally Posted by father of fires

Are you saying that Ampeg has skewed the data?

Or, are you saying that we can't be for sure without all the data but it is possible?

No way to know if it's an attempt at skewing without having all the data. 1 + 2 + ? = ?.... who knows, need more data.

[father of fires]

The manual shows some differences.

http://www.ampeg.com/pdf/SW0831_RevA_Pro%20Neo.PDF

There are to many to list but it might shed some light on whether or not it can go that low.

I do see that the 4x10 has a higher sensitivity so, it will definitely be louder.

Now, the 115 says it's usable to 28hz but, the frequency response is now listed as 48hz to 10khz.???

I guess this goes back to JimmyM's thread about being truthful in ad copy.

[TheBasicBassist]

Not trying to troll or be rude or anything like that..
But isn't MOST below 60hz just rumble and muddiness especially,
no offense to Ampeg, on an amplifier like this? On something like
the Acme Low B I could probably understand it because it's more voiced
for sub contra playing - right? But, to me, the Ampeg has always been
a rock n' roll kind of amp and, ime, not particularly built with a Low B or
Low F# in mind. Of course I know that Ampeg amps as all have been used
in every style of music just rock n' roll comes to mind first, I'd like to know
if Jaquo III-X has any experience with this, though. (Using his sub contra
through a 4x10.)

[lomo]

The likely scenario is that the 35Hz freq, if present, reaches a volume so soft as to be completely obliterated by higher freq. That's the kind of stuff more accurate info would reveal.

[lbwdog]

Ampeg may be quoting the driver manufacturer's freq rating for a single 10, and a single 15. Multiple numbers of smaller speakers can go lower than one can.

Think of the Bose 901 with nine 4" drivers. It certainly has tons more bass output than one 4" driver could.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by father of fires

I guess this goes back to JimmyM's thread about being truthful in ad copy.

+1. Not to pick on Ampeg, as they are more honest than most, but what they leave out is far more significant than what they reveal. The only way to know exactly what a cab can do is to see not only an SPL chart but also to know the driver displacement.

Multiple numbers of smaller speakers can go lower than one can.

-1. Multiple drivers will go louder than one, but they won't go lower.

Think of the Bose 901 with nine 4" drivers. It certainly has tons more bass output than one 4" driver could.

Not a good example, I'm afraid. Got no highs, got no lows, must be...

[JimmyM]

if you check out the manual for these pro neos, they list both the -3db point and the -10db (usable low frequency) point. it's omitted from the ad copy, but it's in the manual.

[rockstarbassist]

ZOMG NO, NO! AMPEGS CANNOT LIE

[father of fires]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

+1. Not to pick on Ampeg, as they are more honest than most, but what they leave out is far more significant than what they reveal. The only way to know exactly what a cab can do is to see not only an SPL chart but also to know the driver displacement.
-1. Multiple drivers will go louder than one, but they won't go lower. Not a good example, I'm afraid. Got no highs, got no lows, must be...

Bill,

Have you looked at the specs in the manual?

I'm just wondering, based on what's there, would the 4x10 still have more audible lows?

I'm not really in the market but, I may be playing with a band that tunes really low. So, I'm looking for future cab options.

I was looking at the 410HLF when I noticed the Neo 15 went lower (allegedly).

[JimmyM]

the 410hlf goes to 28 hz at the -10db point so that's about the same as the pro neo 115, except being a 410, the 410hlf will be louder.

btw, the "410 goes lower than a 115" thing is not a hard and fast rule up and down the line for every cab, as you are now seeing. but it is often the case. besides, there is more to a cab that sounds good for detuning than just merely going low.

[3506string]

I might be wrong but I though the argument was that an average 4x10 would have more low end output than a average 1x15" cabinet, not that it would go lower.

[AwkwardLoudness]

Originally Posted by father of fires

The 15" goes down to 35hz and the 4x10" only goes to 45hz.

Hell, even the classic 410HLF only goes to 48hz!

So? The Ampeg PR-410HLF (not the 410HLF) has a reported frequency response (-3dB) of 33Hz - 18kHz. Efficiency is reported by Ampeg to be 96 dB. These numbers may mean something when comparing other Ampeg cabs...but it's apples and orange against other brands with their different testing methods.
http://www.ampeg.com/products/pro/pr410hlf/index.html

The diameter of the speakers don't matter much. Speaker efficiency, maximum driver excursion, useful frequency range, number of speakers, crossover+tweeter design, and cab design are far more important. Smaller speakers tend to have better transient peak response and lower max excursion. More 10" speakers than 15" speakers will fit into a cab of equal size.

Originally Posted by father of fires

I may be reading this stuff wrong but it seems to me that if I wanted to build a rig to handle super lows, wouldn't I be better off with the 15"?

For large range cabs that go low, I think many TB'ers here would recommend various 3 way cabs with sub-driver(s), mid-driver(s), and tweeter(s) with sturdy crossovers:
BFM, fEarful, Low Down Sound, and Avatar TB153.

[4001]

I've got two 2X15's. I'd rather not sound like so many others with 10's.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by 4001

I've got two 2X15's. I'd rather not sound like so many others with 10's.

you're assuming all cabs with 15" have a signature sound, and all cabs with 10"s do, too. speaker size has nothing to do with what a cab sounds like.

[4001]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

you're assuming all cabs with 15" have a signature sound, and all cabs with 10"s do, too. speaker size has nothing to do with what a cab sounds like.

I'm just saying that I like the sound of 15's more than 10's.
They seem to have more deep growl.