Ideal way to mic an Amp and Cab - Page 2

pgk · #21 03-23-2008, 06:49 AM

ev re-20 or sennheiser 421 on a bass cab for me, the re20 being #1; no proximity effect. both killer bass cab mics. heard good things about the audix d4 as well.

HitByABlimp · #22 03-23-2008, 09:59 AM

Ok, I'm might be asking a very dumb-ass question here, but various posts say "on the cone" or whatever. What part of the driver do you mean exactly (center, edge or in between). I heard there's a difference in sound/tone...
(can't listen for myself, because I don't own a good mic)

nickelseye · #23 03-23-2008, 10:53 AM

I tried the D6 and didn't care for it..too boomy and sucked out the mids ime.

I also tried an Audix D3 which I liked. I've actually had the best results with a SM57. I also DI from the amp, SWR Workingman's 12.

I'd really like to try the Sennheiser MD421.

HitByABlimp, I place the mic between the cone and the edge.

Hounddog, get yourself a mic splitter..then you can run 2 lines into one channel.

fokof · #24 03-23-2008, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Clarke

I voted Other
Almost any mic will work - I just prefer not use heavily pre-EQed mics like the big Beta (56 or 52, I don't recall), AKG D112, etc... I particularly like the Beyer M88, Apex 215 or 460, or one of any number of large condensers. Even cheap large diaphragm condensers tend to work well.

+1000

God I hate those EQ'ed mics.... beta52 , D112 , e602 ,
Like when Metallica got the black album out and then it was all SM91.
No mids , just lows and attacks. Can you please let me choose the frequency I want to cut???
I don't get it......

Feels better now!

To answer ; I'm all DI all the time but my fave mic for a bass cab is ATM-25.

SpectorBass · #25 03-23-2008, 02:49 PM

If you've only got 1 channel for bass, stick with the DI for sure, it's the best way to get the full tonal range of your bass to FOH.

Adding a mic adds the characteristics of the amp, and adds nice texture on top of your clean DI signal.

I definitely agree with the people saying the pre-eq'd kick drum mics don't sound great. The D112, and the Beta52 are far too scooped to get a nice sound from a bass cab. My mics of choice are the Sennheiser MD421, or the EV RE20. Both dead flat mics with a broad frequency range that sounds great for live and studio micing.

**bassman314** · #26 03-23-2008, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpectorBass

If you've only got 1 channel for bass, stick with the DI for sure, it's the best way to get the full tonal range of your bass to FOH.

Adding a mic adds the characteristics of the amp, and adds nice texture on top of your clean DI signal.

I definitely agree with the people saying the pre-eq'd kick drum mics don't sound great. The D112, and the Beta52 are far too scooped to get a nice sound from a bass cab. My mics of choice are the Sennheiser MD421, or the EV RE20. Both dead flat mics with a broad frequency range that sounds great for live and studio micing.

Actually, I am going into a 40-channel board, and we rarely use more than 17 - 20 channels. This is part of the reason I want to experiment a bit and get the best sound possible.

I guess the pole is misleading, as I wanted people to pick "all that apply", however it appears that the consensus is use a DI and some form of mic on the cone.

I've also taken to heart the advice many of you have given me regarding which mic to use, so I'm really looking into the Audix D-6, and the Sennheiser MD421. Our Sound tech has some connections in the area, so we'll be able to actually try before I drop $2-400 on a mic that sounds like crapola.

scowboy · #27 03-23-2008, 04:11 PM

An EV RE-20 or a Senn. 421 are the safest bets for a live mic'd bass cabinet. SM-57 will work but the former would be most ideal.

A D112 would be horrible for a bass amp...that mic is tuned just for kick and in my experience I'd still rather have the former than a D112 on a kick.

There is a reason those mic designs are 30+ years old but people still use them! e609 might be interesting if it is anything like the old 409.

scowboy · #28 03-23-2008, 04:13 PM

Use and RE-20 or a 421. They are both designed for extended frequency high SPL applications. Both about the same price too.

SM-57 or 58 would work in a pinch but certainly not my first choice. Rather than mic the tweeter i'd simply mess with the proximately of the mic to the tweeter. If you have great sounding bass cabinet then it is okay to mic the bass amp and mix it with the DI!

**Ukiah Bass** · #29 03-26-2008, 04:36 PM

There are lots of ways to mic a bass cab. Factors include type of mic, angle of mic, distance of mic from cab, type of room resonance, etc. I wrote an article about this including 21 sound files illustrating many options. Check it out at:

http://www.wikimusician.org/How_to_M...peaker_Cabinet

51m0n · #30 03-27-2008, 04:19 AM

Live you are in a world of hurt really, you have to close mic due to spill, but you cant get the true sound like that, so its good for mixing with your DI to add a flavour of your cab - watch for phase issues though!!!!

In the studio is a different matter. Definitely take hi quality DI out to a channel strip with a touch of compression to disk/tape (you can always add more later).

In terms of mics I would say defnitely use many. Definitely avoid eq-ed kick mics, since the chances are that the actual mic in the kick will be very similar in terms of its eq-ing, and if theres one thing you really dont want to do its eq the bass and the kick similarly, we want frequency seperation between these two instruments at all times!!!!!

I have had fantastic results with all sorts of mics, Sennheiser MD421 (any variation on this mic going back through the years) for closer micing (I actually used to use one of these at about 1 to 2 feet and another at 6 to 8 feet) and a Neumann TLM-103 for a mic a little further away.

Say we have ch1 for DI, ch2 for close mic, ch3 for room mic. Get the mics so that each sound pretty good (I mean direction they point in, distance from centre, rough distance from the cab).

The trick is getting the phase right. It can be a fairly tortuous process but if you can get hum from your bass it can help, otherwise any continuous signal through the rig will do, pink noise is best. Crank the bass up (if there is no hum this bit is unnessecary!), and each channel so that you can hear the hum/pink noise from each channel in turn. WARNING do not let anyone touch the bass, do not let anyone near the desk, they could fry your ear drums!!!!

Then to fine tune the phase invert the phase on ch2 and put up ch 1 and 2. Move the mic back and forth until all hum disappears in your cranked cans. Revert the phase of ch2 to normal.

Then repeat with ch3 (invert phase, fine distance from cab revert phase). Ok, you can do a quick check between ch2 and ch3 if you like at this point, but you will usually find all is well.

At this point set the gains on all channels to sensible levels, and record a few bars. Check out the play back, mix the mics in all kinds of different ways to hear how much cab to room to DI works on its own. Ideally try to have the three tracks available for mix down, but if that isn't possible you can bounce them together at this point.

The next stage is to send all the tracks to their own group and use a multi band compressor on the group for dynamics control. But thats getting into alien technology levels for most players

One other point, if you live room sucks for bass, completely forget room mics!

51m0n · #31 03-27-2008, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ukiah Bass

There are lots of ways to mic a bass cab. Factors include type of mic, angle of mic, distance of mic from cab, type of room resonance, etc. I wrote an article about this including 21 sound files illustrating many options. Check it out at:

http://www.wikimusician.org/How_to_M...peaker_Cabinet

Nice article!

Feel free to add my tried and tested method for "phase cancellation at source" as described above if you like....

fokof · #32 03-27-2008, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 51m0n

Nice article!

Feel free to add my tried and tested method for "phase cancellation at source" as described above if you like....

Nice trick , thanx !

I was doin it the Visual way ;
Recored both with a tone of some sort ,and a spike a top.
Check the distance between the waves and calculate the distance with the timing ( you have to know the frequency to be OK ).
the cacul will change depending of the sampling rate.

51m0n · #33 03-27-2008, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fokof

Nice trick , thanx !

I was doin it the Visual way ;
Recored both with a tone of some sort ,and a spike a top.
Check the distance between the waves and calculate the distance with the timing ( you have to know the frequency to be OK ).
the cacul will change depending of the sampling rate.

Back in the day (well mid to late 90's actually) I used to do something similar by ear on a Fostex DMT8, it had a jog wheel that allowed you to easily find the start of a percussive sound (a thump for instance) and then move another track to bring it in time. Never worked as well as I would have liked, so I figured out the above way to try and stop the issue at source.

With todays graphical editors of wave forms its easier to do, but you still dont really know what you're getting until you've done the edit, which is too late IMO, I like to know I've got it really close if not perfect before I lay a note in anger.

Really pleased if this helps anyone else out there!

You do need a pair of cans that isolate you pretty well from the source though, or a way to get a meter of the output visible in the live space (my preferred way in fact, since it doesn't lie).

nickelseye · #34 03-27-2008, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ukiah Bass

There are lots of ways to mic a bass cab. Factors include type of mic, angle of mic, distance of mic from cab, type of room resonance, etc. I wrote an article about this including 21 sound files illustrating many options. Check it out at:

http://www.wikimusician.org/How_to_M...peaker_Cabinet

This is a great article! I have been using it as a reference for awhile. I didn't realize it was from a TB'er! Good work!

Also good advice from 51m0n. Thanks to both of you!

**Ukiah Bass** · #35 03-27-2008, 10:43 AM

Hey 51m0n -- great tip. Thanks! I added it to the article. BTW, the WikiMusician site is a wiki so you can edit it just like Wikipedia. Anyone else with good ideas is welcome to do so. I'm learning lots from your suggestions. Thanks.

Coop Soup · #36 03-27-2008, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadB

Different strokes....... I usually prefer an AKG D112. On the edge if the cone for a sharper attack, a bit away from it for more body. I use this in addition to the DI on my Sadowsky Outboard Pre, and blend them on the board. Lately I have been using the DI from my WalkAbout instead of the mic. I am getting lazy.

That's what I prefer. D112 on my cab and blend that with the DI on my head. One sound guy threw a D112 on my 2X10 and another on my 15. I also ran direct and he blended all three. I guess the sound out front was gigantic. That sound guy rocked.