If price was no object - DIY content

dhomer · #1 03-03-2011, 12:21 PM

I've been doing some homework lately on the ol 'ISD, and something has really piqued my curiosity. There's some really pricey drivers availabe to us DIY'ers, and I'm sure they wouldn't be made available unless folks are finding practical uses for them. I'm not questioning the merits of Kappalites, fEarfuls, and BFM's. Best bang for the buck anywhere I'll agree. I'm just wondering if one left price completely out of the equation, has someone either built or modeled something that could surpass the standard bearers in terms of size and performance.. I'm talking about a cab for general gigging use..

Passinwind · #2 03-03-2011, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dhomer

I've been doing some homework lately on the ol 'ISD, and something has really piqued my curiosity. There's some really pricey drivers available to us DIY'ers, and I'm sure they wouldn't be made available unless folks are finding practical uses for them. I'm not questioning the merits of Kappalites, fEarfuls, and BFM's. Best bang for the buck anywhere I'll agree. I'm just wondering if one left price completely out of the equation, has someone either built or modeled something that could surpass the standard bearers in terms of size and performance.. I'm talking about a cab for general gigging use..

I have a pair of the BMS 15N630s. For a 4 string player they allow a bit smaller cab with minimal compromises that were very acceptable to me. They handle a lowB pretty darned well too though. Good luck getting 'em in the US these days. The price went up dramatically just after I got mine too -- at the time they were only about 40 bucks more than the KL 3015LF.

Greenboy had a mention of these in the fEarful Wiki, not sure if it's still there or not.

greenboy · #3 03-03-2011, 12:51 PM

Some insight: When I did my first fEARful version on paper it was actually in several box sizes. That was for me - not originally designed for anytone BUT me. I looked at every driver around at the time, money no object, but I did have some common sense. I wanted drivers that were actually possible to get more than one of in the US without a bunch of BS. I also wanted something that didn't require a PA stack methodology where you have a low crosspoint and a lot of watts going to a subwoofer, and then a top cab too. I also wanted the final package to come in under 60 pounds and be the loudest 60 pounds around.

After trying to chase several superwoofers down for months that would have sacrificed a little sensitivity, but would have done true lows in a smaller box, I got tired of the frustration and the distributor douchebags that didn't care to represent their product lines well. So I decided to try the 3015LF which at the time was 50% the price of most of the nearest competitors, and easy to get. It also weighed less than all of the competitors and had a lot of distributors and dealers. It wasn't a dead end.

And as history shows, for the U.S. I made the right choice for the time - partly because a 12" version was eventually introduced that was similarly advantaged. When I decided to share my plans here on talkbass, even for people elsewhere the Eminence prices and availability were pretty decent, and for those in the U.S. this level of performance could be built fairly cheap considering the standard I was going for.

So in practical terms it IS the best woofer around for my mindset. I'm often revisiting this, researching what's coming out, what's available, what could be substituted without much but slight box tuning change. Oddly enough the Kappalites seem to be the best choice for my parameters STILL. I don't want to add weight or require more wattage, or bi-amping or triamping.

I still feel great about the way it worked out for me, and others.

Sundogue · #4 03-03-2011, 01:27 PM

I'll second the fEarful for many reasons Greenboy mentioned. There may be better drivers out there, but when it comes right down to it, even if money were no object the 3015LF (or 3012LF) is just about the perfect low end driver especially given the availability, price, support and specs combined.

If money were no object, I'd do a 1515/66 fEarful with top handles and a slanted wheel base at the back on bottom OR two 15/6's to stack with the ability to latch them together as a hand cart/dolly. 215's that will handle any gig and midrange drivers to fill out the sound. For a DIY'er I haven't found anything close to these and I've experimented a great deal with other configurations, but in the end it just amounts to reinventing the wheel and one where the fEarful still comes out superior.

But alas money is an object anyway for me and I'm still saving my pennies (sometimes literally) for a fEarful build.

billfitzmaurice · #5 03-03-2011, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dhomer

if one left price completely out of the equation, has someone either built or modeled something that could surpass the standard bearers in terms of size and performance....

No. All you'll get for more money is higher power ratings, and those alone don't equate with better performance. Better durability perhaps, but not better sound. I recommend a couple of 18Sound drivers as a step up from the 3012LF and 3015LF, but from a durability aspect, in pro-touring PA use, where durability is paramount and cost is no object. At present the 3012HO reigns supreme in its niche, no matter what the price.

cableguy · #6 03-03-2011, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sundogue

I'll second the fEarful for many reasons Greenboy mentioned. There may be better drivers out there, but when it comes right down to it, even if money were no object the 3015LF (or 3012LF) is just about the perfect low end driver especially given the availability, price, support and specs combined.

If money were no object, I'd do a 1515/66 fEarful with top handles and a slanted wheel base at the back on bottom OR two 15/6's to stack with the ability to latch them together as a hand cart/dolly. 215's that will handle any gig and midrange drivers to fill out the sound. For a DIY'er I haven't found anything close to these and I've experimented a great deal with other configurations, but in the end it just amounts to reinventing the wheel and one where the fEarful still comes out superior.

But alas money is an object anyway for me and I'm still saving my pennies (sometimes literally) for a fEarful build.

Funny you mentioned the latched cabs Sundogue. I working on a 12/6+12/sub where the cabs latch together and the 12/sub has wheels. It will be similar to MX21's 12/12/6 but two cabs. As for the OP, for DIY cabs I'm sold on the fEarfuls. My 12/6 rocks.

Sundogue · #7 03-03-2011, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cableguy

Funny you mentioned the latched cabs Sundogue. I working on a 12/6+12/sub where the cabs latch together and the 12/sub has wheels. It will be similar to MX21's 12/12/6 but two cabs. As for the OP, for DIY cabs I'm sold on the fEarfuls. My 12/6 rocks.

I already have that configuration with my little 110/6 "mini" fEarfuls (would be nice if they came out with the 3010LF already). The head and cabs and the accessory case all latch together.

It's a 210 combo AND modular 110 separates all in one......

Apologies for the derail.

Boostedrex · #8 03-03-2011, 03:46 PM

Another company that isn't as well known but turns out some SERIOUSLY top notch drivers is Acoustic Elegance. www.aespeakers.com is the website. Great company and John (the owner/designer/builder) is also a really good guy.

craig.p · #9 03-03-2011, 03:52 PM

I modeled a 4x15 a while ago, because long ago one of our rigs included a 4x15 reflex box on either side of the stage. They had EVM15B drivers. Basically I wanted to see what those boxes were doing for us way back then in the mid '70s. But my memory had discarded a couple of pieces of info, so I gave it up. I do remember, though, they had a center slot. Still, if price were no object, I wouldn't mind having someone competent do a 4x15 build for me.

LOL, it just occurred to me that Bill or GB or Duke's gonna say, "No one who's competent would build something like that in the first place!"

billfitzmaurice · #10 03-03-2011, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boostedrex

Another company that isn't as well known but turns out some SERIOUSLY top notch drivers is Acoustic Elegance. www.aespeakers.com is the website. Great company and John (the owner/designer/builder) is also a really good guy.

Nice drivers, but hi-fi, not pro-sound.

Quote:

LOL, it just occurred to me that Bill or GB or Duke's gonna say, "No one who's competent would build something like that in the first place!

Not in this century. A 4x15 made some sense in the last one, due to the limitations of the drivers available. That was then, this is now. A 4x15 loaded with EVMs is as pertinent today as a Commodore 64.

Boostedrex · #11 03-03-2011, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

Nice drivers, but hi-fi, not pro-sound.

The TD15M seems like it would be a solid choice. Except that it's heavy. That's the biggest downside. It's hard to get away from the lightweight neo drivers available today!

dhomer · #12 03-04-2011, 12:28 AM

Thanks, guys for chiming in.. Kinda figured everything in the catalog got thrown in the program one time or another in search of the ultimate bass cab.. I modeled some B&C and RCF neo 15"s, and the response graphs weren't nearly what I expected... Obviously drivers meant for large-scale PA ain't the trick for a standalone bass cab in the bar.. Thanks for saving me a lot of work...lol...

Sartori · #13 03-04-2011, 01:14 AM

If price was no object I'd buy some JBL K140's and build a few more 2000s cabs.

Foz · #14 03-04-2011, 04:26 AM

If you use the upgraded fEarful drivers [18sound neo mid & BMS neo horn driver] plus the upgraded xover parts - it aint a "cheap" rig by any means. For example, I think I ran up about $700 of driver and xover parts costs in my 1515/66+1.

If your "size and performance" criteria includes "weight and portability" then I don't see how you get a better "cab for general gigging use" than an upgraded fEarful by spending more on the driver/xover parts... if you implement all the upgrade options you are already in Cadillac territory.

The interesting thing to me is how close you get using the cheaper parts - this is where the quality of Green Man's work is best revealed IMO.

JimmyM · #15 03-04-2011, 04:33 AM

i'd build a vertical 3210 cab.

Boostedrex · #16 03-04-2011, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dhomer

Thanks, guys for chiming in.. Kinda figured everything in the catalog got thrown in the program one time or another in search of the ultimate bass cab.. I modeled some B&C and RCF neo 15"s, and the response graphs weren't nearly what I expected... Obviously drivers meant for large-scale PA ain't the trick for a standalone bass cab in the bar.. Thanks for saving me a lot of work...lol...

I built a DIY cab using some B&C drivers. A pair of 15NW100's to be exact. They're great drivers and I do like them. But they only got used because I already had them just laying around. If I had to buy everything then I would've used a pair of Eminence 3015LF's as they're just hard to beat for the money and SUPER light weight.

fdeck · #17 03-04-2011, 07:43 AM

I'm an engineer by trade, and have seen "price is no object" lead to some of the worst designs ever. It's hard to beat good solid engineering practice, which includes keeping an eye on factors such as cost and efficiency.

Foz · #18 03-04-2011, 08:43 AM

An engineer is a guy who for fifty cents can accomplish what any damned fool can do for five bucks.

Boostedrex · #19 03-04-2011, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fdeck

I'm an engineer by trade, and have seen "price is no object" lead to some of the worst designs ever. It's hard to beat good solid engineering practice, which includes keeping an eye on factors such as cost and efficiency.

Very well said!

greasyogre · #20 05-03-2011, 11:38 PM

All you'll get for more money is higher power ratings... as well as lower Qes and higher Xmax and Xlim. All of these things are good when you have to carry the speaker in a suitable cabinet and Peavey and Bugera are selling your band mates 100 Watt stacks for pocket change. The price on the 3015LF has gone up to what you can get a 15NW100 for now anyway. I'd rather not see a run on good speakers again, so listen when I say expensive drivers will suck all the mojo out of your tone and make your girlfriend sleep with the soundguy.

Don't forget:
Low Qes = no mojo
High Xmax and/or Xlim = girlfriend sleeps with soundguy