I'm at the pivotal point...

[Dustin Teel]

...in a bassist's life where he has truly embarked on the quest for that exact tone.

And I still can't find it.

I've been going through various heads, combos, and cabinets for the last few months. I started with a Behringer 410 combo when I was 17, and later upgraded to a Gallien Krueger MB210 with an offbrand 410 extension, then moved on to an Ampeg 410HLF with a Hartke 5500 head, then used the Hartke head with a Peavey 412TVX, then got the Acoustic 8x10 cab to go with Hartke head...

And still haven't (seemingly) come close to the sound I'm looking for. I'm still young (early 20s) and haven't had enough experience with different brands to know exactly what gear is going to give me the sound I want. I really need to end this search and figure out what I'm going to use because my band is getting increasingly popular, we are playing big shows, and having a new rig every month is not sitting well with the others and our sound guys.

I know exactly what tone I want, but haven't been able to reproduce it. We are playing 90s alternative/grunge rock covers (Soundgarden, Alice in Chains, Stone Temple Pilots) and originals at venues ranging in capacity of 200 to 500 persons (generally). I know I need no less than 410s, 810s, 412s, or 215s to keep up with my two guitarists using full stack tube amps. The tone I am looking for is identical to the bass tone on Megadeth's album Cryptic Writings and the Alice in Chains album Facelift. This is a clunky, deep, metallic, growly sounding bass tone. This tone was produced with Ampeg SVT heads and 810 cabs....

...which my young, broke ass cannot afford. So I need to get as close as possible.

The Behringer was (believe it or not) the best sounding of the rigs listed above for one reason = it growled. I don't like clean bass. I'm all about that low-mid growl/punch. I love my bass and the tone of it (Schecter Raiden 4) but it is an EXTREMELY loud passive bass. It's louder than most active basses I've played. With the 500 watt Hartke head and the Schecter, the Acoustic 8x10 was farting out with the volume on 2. I know Acoustic isn't the leading brand by any means, so I'm not overly surprised, but I expected more from an 8x10. The Peavey TVX could handle it much better, I played on about 10'oclock and was heard just find. But the tone was old, floppy, and worn out... much like the cab.

Anyway, I'm going to Guitarcenter to return the Acoustic 8x10 and I need to leave with something that can get that tone without distorting.

So, what would be the most growly, punchy 410 that can handle the most volume in the $800 or less price range? In you guys opinion, even with the tube preamp section of the Hartke maxed and low-mids pumped, will the amp be able to achieve the tone I've described? Should I go ahead and sell the head and start looking for another? Should I try some speaker setups that I have yet to play on (215, 210/115)?

Weight/size is not an issue.

And I know we all get tired of these "omg what should I buy?!!" posts, but throw me a bone, I'm desperate. Ha.

[TheRealKong]

I know Your problem verry well, as I searched for, let's say, 30 years of my 35-years bassman - carreer.....

Just joking - but I think you are on the "search for your sound" a livetime! I am satisfied with my gear now.

Just try the TECH 21 SANSAMP CHARACTER VT BASS V2 - pedal or a EBS VALVEDRIVE. This two stompboxes - with tubes built in - are real top notch for the type of sound you described - as far as I understood.

For cabs I am verry lucky with the Peavey TVX 410. It has a bit of mid-bark that suits and helps to get a growling sound.

Am I right, Your Amp should be a LLH 500?? The pedals I suggested should fit verry well to that amp.

[makohund]

I say don't bother trying to squeeze that sound out of any speakers unless you can get the real thing, and power it with the real thing. You might get close, but spend just as much by the time you do.

Since you can't, get the sound in your signal instead, and send it to whatever you got or can get. Most folks here swear by the Tech21 VT pedal, I haven't tried one myself yet. I used to get it out of a SansAmp RBI through a power amp. Now a Carvin BX1500 with the drive cranked gets close enough for me, which probably isn't enough for you if you like it fuzzier.

I did it for years with a 115/210, but will not recommend it... despite kinda wanting to sell my old stack.

2x15 could be good. 2 2x10's could be good. Personally I'm sold on the 2 or 3-way setup. fEARfuls, Barefaced, Avatar 153s, etc. Many of those would be right there with a 4x10, if not better. Most would cost a bit more than that, unless you don't mind building your own, or getting the Avatar version. But you can't bring any of those home from Guitar Center.

For $800... if you really want to go whole hog on the Ampeg sound, and don't care for any of these other options for getting it... you should be able to find one used for less than that, and get a VT or other SansAmp. With your Hartke, they should at least get you close. Then decide whether you need to start saving up for the SVT head, too.

[AwkwardLoudness]

So, what would be the most growly, punchy 410 that can handle the most volume in the $800 or less price range?

What you want is a used Bergantino NV610 cab. You won't find one at a GC though.

[WingKL]

Have you tried looking for a used Ampeg 810? You could probably find one for less than $800. That should get you most of the way within your budget.

[makohund]

With the mention of the Berg I'll amend my first line to "the real thing, or an equivalent that probably won't be at GC".

[oldcatfish]

Take my suggestions with this in mind. I don't play loud rigs, just at churches. But I've used a lot of different amps in a lot of different rooms, making due with less than ideal equipment at times. I can usually get close to whatever tone that I am going for.

First your bass. Though it may not take a battery--with it's high output it should be treated as an active bass. So treat it as such with any amp's input and you'll get better tone control. I have a p-bass that has after market pickups. I have a lot more control by using the amp's active input/pad switch.

Second, the cab. Try some different ones out with your amp head and bass. See what can hold up to the volume. You should definitely try the Ampeg cabs, but don't discount any brand until you try them.

Third, the amp. I haven't played Hartke gear before, but the first thing that I'd try is an "Ampeg simulator" like the Tech 21 VT bass. If that still didn't do it and I felt that I still needed a new amp, I'd start with the Ampeg PF series and then work my way up the models until I was close enough.

[nashvillebill]

Have you gone out into the crowd to hear what your tone sounds like in the audience? I've found that a tone that sounds great on stage...may sound quite boomy or muddy out in the middle or back of the room. Conversely, a cutting growly tone out in the middle of the room may sound thin and wimpy on stage.

I have given up on the "quest for the perfect tone" on live gigs. Sound changes from night to night, from room to room, even according to my playing. I don't mean I'm willing to settle for an extremely crappy sound, but at my age, life's too short to seek that impossible Nirvana.

[grendle]

If that's the tone your looking for, both are very different. Dave eleifson was using modulous basses at the time on tour but no telling what he used in the studio. Everything from fenders to steinberger to Jackson.Peavey and hartke amps live.

The AIC tone is easier, SPECTOR, ampeg svt's and ampeg svt 8x10's . The SPECTOR is the main ingredient there. Nothing sounds like them ( spent many years learning this), the 8x10 cab has the magic too. The sealed cab gives a ton of punch , you'll still feel the bottom end but the low mids from that cab just kill live. Sucks but you gotta get the heavy sucker. The svt head will let you over drive it to get a bit of distortion which also plays a factor. I would recommend a sans amp bddi to help with the svt head issue if you can't afford one. If you can't get a Spector, a P bass or P bass plus will get you in the ball park but it won't have the same grunt. (think GnR vs AIC). It's not cheap but its the formula. The svt head is the interchangeable component there. A GK or Hartke would work fine. The Spector and the SVT cab though both have their own tones and compliment each other Very well, a little too well unfortunalty.

[makohund]

I'm running a Carvin BX1500 through a fEARful 1212/6/1 and can nail either one. (I hope so, I actually play in an AIC trib, and do Megadeth on my own time often... just tried Trust a few hours ago to see if I could dial that era in as well.)

So it can be done without an SVT/810. Although I do play Spectors, so maybe that helps.

But neither can be had at a GC.

I'd probably go with what I got, or close to it... a SansAmp through any power amp into an Avatar TB153 would be a lot easier on the budget than that. But that's me... obviously I would do that because I chase similar tones (add FNM to the list, and that's my core list) and that's where I've ended up.

Or the other route... same thing, but with a used Ampeg 810. And start working toward an Ampeg head... I'd stick with the Tech 21 emulation in the meantime while saving up for an SVT 2 Pro or something like that. Hope you have a strong back. And then maybe eventually ditch the cab for a Barefaced 69er!

And yeah, a Spector wouldn't hurt either. If you spot an old Korean neck-through, grab it. Much cheaper than a USA or Euro model, and it's still a good bass.

[Jools4001]

I'm 56, I've been playing for over 40 years and I have spent so much money, over the years, on stuff in an attempt to reach my tonal nirvana that it makes me shudder to think.

I know that it's almost a cliche to pop up on here and reply 'fEarful' to almost any cab question (or at least a top notch 15/6 pr 12/6 design). I also know that people have mixed views about modelling pre-amps and that they're not for everyone.

All I can say is I can now get virtually any tone I want with a Line 6 Bass Pod Pro (to be upgraded with an XT version later this morning), a powerful uncoloured power amp and a Barefaced Big One. The only change that I believe that I will want (not necessarily need) is to swap out the power amp for a Crown Drivecore 1000 or 1500. My quest is nearly done.

[Dustin Teel]

Thank you for the replies thus far. This has given me much to consider.

1) I watched several videos on Youtube of people demoing the Tech 21 VT... and just got the confirmation e-mail from Amazon.com that mine has shipped so, done son.

2) I unfortunately would rather not get an actual Ampeg 8x10 simply because I have a four door Toyota Camry and wouldn't be able to transport it. I should have been more specific about the Acoustic, it was two 4x10s stacked. This is the only way I could transport it. I believe I could fit a 6x10. Good advice on the Bergantino, I am going to research that route more.

3) I will test using the active plug on my Hartke head. I feel that the Hartke head has enough power and EQ options that I need not change the head. The pedal will help with this. The bass already has a good low-mid growl, so I should be fine in that regard as well. (Although I would love owning a Spector...) It will be fine for now.

So what I really need to decide on is a cabinet that can handle the 500 watts continuous from the Hartke head without distorting. You guys have suggested some great options. I am familiar with Avatar, but will do more research. I don't know much about the fEarful designs... I've only used gear from retailers, but will do my homework.

Any other cabinet suggestions would be much appreciated. This is the area in which I still feel the most unsure. Thank you for the feedback thus far

[makohund]

Sounds like a good plan.

You can read up on the fEARfuls here: http://greenboy.us. There's a forum there, too. You could build your own from scratch, or build with a pre-cut kit and pre-fabbed crossover, or have one of the listed pros build one for you.

My old cabs are Avatars... great stuff for the money. Still are, the config I picked out was my own fault not the speakers. I'm thinking I'm going to keep the 210 just to have something small around. They do build a 3-way cab that is good. Not a fEARful by any means, but similar idea at a lower cost. (Appx $650 shipped for one of the 3015LF version you'd want.)

If sticking with 10's, you could get two Avatar 210s for roughly $8-900 and stack 'em on end. They should be able to handle the power. They're "rated" for far more than that (5-700W each), but that is thermal... don't think they'll actually take all of it without farting. But two of them probably would.

Really, any cab should be able to work with that head without distorting. Just turn the volume knob down till it stops. If it isn't loud enough at that point, yeah... you need a different cab. (Or another one, if you otherwise like the one you have and the amp can push two of 'em.)

[mikeddd]

Based on what you've said, I don't think the fEarful cabs are what you're looking for. They really dont' have any character/coloration of their own. They are like studio monitors on serious steroids. Ampeg SVTs and 810's are complimentary; each one contributes to "that Ampeg punchy/grindy sound." The fEarfuls just output exactly what you put into it. Your tone has to be there already at the input jack of the cab. I just build a 15/6/1 fEarful (and love it so far) but I've had to completely redo all the EQ on my amp and am having to relearn how my bass' volume and tone controls interact with the new setup/settings.

[makohund]

Originally Posted by mikeddd

Based on what you've said, I don't think the fEarful cabs are what you're looking for. They really dont' have any character/coloration of their own. They are like studio monitors on serious steroids. Ampeg SVTs and 810's are complimentary; each one contributes to "that Ampeg punchy/grindy sound." The fEarfuls just output exactly what you put into it. Your tone has to be there already at the input jack of the cab.

Um... that's kinda the point of the VT he just ordered. And he doesn't have room to haul the cab he already knew he was looking for.

Yes, studio monitors on steroids. Serious steroids. And massive built-in subs.

[mikeddd]

Oh, did he order a VT? I didn't see that. Heck, VT into a poweramp into a fEarful would just kill and get 95% of that Ampeg grind and punch. I know b/c I own a VT. And a poweramp. And a fEarful.

[makohund]

I know because I own an RBI. And a poweramp. And a fEARful. And have been playing a lot more AIC than the average joe for a few years now. And can confirm it'll do the megadeth thing, too.

I do wanna try a VT myself, sometime.

[scottfeldstein]

I say look into some overdrive pedals like some other folks have suggested above. I couldn't believe what came out of my rig when I plugged in my SansAmp bass driver DI. Even though I wasn't pushing a lot of "overdrive," it completely changed the character of my equipment. It sounded like I put my tone under the broiler for a few minutes. Sizzle. I always hated that rubber band fundamental sound, that tennis-ball-on-a-brick-wall attack sound. There are things you can do with an EQ and various other rig settings, but unless you have tubes or a decent tube emulator, you can't get too far.

The cool thing about the SansAmp products is that a lot of them are designed as DIs, to go straight into a PA or recording mixer. They're designed to sound like a bass amp even if you have no amp. In my experience so far, they succeed.

[mikeddd]

An RBI is one of the tools on my GAS shortlist. I also own an Aguilar AGRO pedal and I like it better than the VT Bass for certain things. The VT has that built-in 810 cab simulation thing going on, and being that's it's not defeatable it's always there no matter what twiddling you do with all the knobs. The VT is one of many pedals on my board. I play many different types of music so the VT is not always on. If I was just playing AC/DC classic rock type tunes, the VT into a poweramp would be all I'd need for sure.

Originally Posted by makohund

I know because I own an RBI. And a poweramp. And a fEARful. And have been playing a lot more AIC than the average joe for a few years now. And can confirm it'll do the megadeth thing, too.

I do wanna try a VT myself, sometime.

[AwkwardLoudness]

Originally Posted by scottfeldstein

I say look into some overdrive pedals like some other folks have suggested above.

He already ordered a Tech 21 VT pedal

Originally Posted by Dustin Teel

Thank you for the replies thus far. This has given me much to consider.

1) I watched several videos on Youtube of people demoing the Tech 21 VT... and just got the confirmation e-mail from Amazon.com that mine has shipped so, done son.