JBL K140-E140 / Sunn 200S Cab

[Oren Hudson]

Having read most of the vintage JBL speaker threads and also reading the praises of the Sunn 200S cab, my interest in the combo has really increased. I've located an empty 200S cab nearby. I've also located nearby a JBL K140 and an E140, both in excellent condition, maybe even having been rebuilt within the last year. What about putting those two JBLs together in the 200S cab? I'm interested in your thoughts and opinions on this possibility.

PS - they are both 8 ohms.

[lowphatbass]

Impedance is going to be important. I can also tell you that the baffle work inside a 200s cab doesn't leave much space for deeper baskets/larger magnets, the D140f drivers barely fit. I'm not sure if the E140 is larger or deeper but it might be worth looking into.

[SactoBass]

Earth to JohnK.

Earth to JohnK.

Come in......JohnK.

[Downunderwonder]

JohnK_10 wherefore art thou? Probably packing up a show about now.

[4Mal]

The E series and K series are very, very different drivers. Completely different magnet material and shape. they do not sound much alike. Oddly, the D & K series were more or less the same except for paint. You can recone a D using the K kit. You can also recone a 130 frame with a 140 kit meaning that a d130 van become a K 140. Or in other words, the frame and magnets are the same...

I gigged a pair of 200s cabs loaded with D140's way, way back there. Remember them fondly. These days I would probaby get the cab, run some numbers and see if 3015's would work (or the Faital. I just haven't worked with that one and the 3015 is a speaker I like a lot).

The 200S cab was nicely sized and lightweight for the day. First really good bass cabs I owned. There was a brief period of time when I actually flipped them down on their faces after rehearsal, pulled on the foam topper and that was bed.... Ah the band house days... Probably responsible for my posture at this point! Downside of going SVT was that I also had to buy a bed...

[Downunderwonder]

Last I heard K recone kits were discontinued but E-140 kits could go on K frames making them into E-140 for all intents.

[jnewmark]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

Last I heard K recone kits were discontinued but E-140 kits could go on K frames making them into E-140 for all intents.

Not sure about that. The magnets are totally different on those two drivers. I recently had two K140's reconed and a/b'd them with two E140's and they still sound very different. I like them both, but the K140 has a much sweeter upper mid tone, imho.

[edbass]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

Last I heard K recone kits were discontinued but E-140 kits could go on K frames making them into E-140 for all intents.

The kits are interchangeable between D, K and E series, and as 4Mal posts the motors and baskets of the 130 and 140 version of each series are identical.
Factory D kits have gone the way of the dinosaur, as have factory K kits. The E kit is a drop in replacement for either the D or K, but they are also discontinued and getting rare/expensive, and it doesn't get you an E series.
It’s more the motors than the cones that tonally differentiates between the defunct JBL MI speaker lineups.

I have D's and K's with E kits, and they both pretty much sound like a K series rather than an E series.

The biggest difference between the D and K series is the power handling capacity. When the D series was in its heyday a 100 watt amp was a freekin' monster, the driver was conservatively rated for maybe 75 watts, and when the K came out in '73? amps were getting bigger; largely by virtue of a stronger, stiffer suspension it was now rated at still conservative 150 watts. Both drivers have that sweet AlNiCo motor that IMO give them a very "musical" property; nice high end extension, smooth mids and decently tight bottom.

AlNiCo was getting expensive and ceramic magnet materials were more cost efficient as well as mechanically efficient so when the E series came out it had a ceramic motor. Handled 200 watts, but didn't quite sound the same as the AlNiCo drivers.

I think the E and K would probably work together in the Sunn cab, might sound bitchin’, might sound like ass, BUT here's the “rub” as far as Oren's dilemma; I don't think the E series will fit in the 200S cab. I have several 200S cabs but no E series drivers so I don't know for sure, but the AlNiCo JBLs barely squeak in there as it is.

[nysbob]

I've got one each K & E 145's in my single 15" boxes...I never could hear much difference between them. There's no way either of them would fit in that Sunn cab, the magnets are too massive.

[Vince Klortho]

I noticed those are mounted from the rear. Is it possible to take the grill off and mount the speaker from the front ? That would give a bit more space to the rear of the speaker.

[nysbob]

Originally Posted by Vince Klortho

I noticed those are mounted from the rear. Is it possible to take the grill off and mount the speaker from the front ? That would give a bit more space to the rear of the speaker.

You'd have to fashion a gasket, but I've seen them front mounted before. Not sure if there's enough clearance to the grill cloth on 200S though.

[lfh]

The cone kits are mechanically interchangeable (but not equivalent) for D, K and E, but the Ferrite-engines are stronger in this case, and have a wider and lower profile.

K140:
Depth = 143 mm
Flux Density = 1.20 T
http://lansingheritage.org/images/jb...ries/page4.jpg

E140:
Depth = 137 mm
Flux Density = 1.35 T
http://lansingheritage.org/images/jb...pro/page15.jpg

[lfh]

Originally Posted by Oren Hudson

Having read most of the vintage JBL speaker threads and also reading the praises of the Sunn 200S cab, my interest in the combo has really increased. I've located an empty 200S cab nearby. I've also located nearby a JBL K140 and an E140, both in excellent condition, maybe even having been rebuilt within the last year. What about putting those two JBLs together in the 200S cab? I'm interested in your thoughts and opinions on this possibility.

PS - they are both 8 ohms.

Personally I'd look for two K:s with original cones. E:s are heavier and have lower Xmax than K:s...

[edbass]

Originally Posted by nysbob

I've got one each K & E 145's in my single 15" boxes...I never could hear much difference between them. There's no way either of them would fit in that Sunn cab, the magnets are too massive.

I forgot about your rig Bob; it certainly is solidly on the "bitchin" side of the tonal spectrum.
The tonal nuances between the ceramic and the AlNiCo JBLs aren't that great IMO, as I posted I didn't think there would be an issue mixing them up; your rig verifies that theory.

Originally Posted by nysbob

You'd have to fashion a gasket, but I've seen them front mounted before. Not sure if there's enough clearance to the grill cloth on 200S though.

Front mounting the drivers is what Sunn should have done from the beginning. The 38 screws holding the back on alone is good enough reason in my estimation, but when you add to that the inflexibility of using other drivers it makes you wonder what they were thinking.
In defense of Conrad and the crew in Portland, the 200S was designed around the D140F, and that particular cab design was never even offered with anything else during its production run. Plus, rear mounting was the standard procedure for speaker cabs in that era for nearly all manufacturers, keep in mind the cab was originally designed in like 1964ish. The mid-late 1970 redesigned "215" cab that replaced the 200S had side ports and was front loaded; it will take about anything you want to drop into it;



The grill of the 200S is stretched over a 1/4" ply frame and is screwed on from the inside of the cab. The pic is actually a 2000S cab; lots more motor room in that cab even when you rear mount;



I'm pretty sure that the grill would touch the drivers if you just front mounted them, you would probably need to fashion a spacer.
Just switching the grill to a Velcro mount might even buy enough clearance to pull it off.

[edbass]

Originally Posted by lfh

Personally I'd look for two K:s with original cones. E:s are heavier and have lower Xmax than K:s...

Absolutely, best case scenario for that cab; also one of the best sounding bass guitar cabs ever produced IMO.

[RS66LB]

I used to play through a E-140 in a small 'cube' type single 15 cab (roughly 17"x17x17), it sounded great for bass in that it has a smooth low end and ok definition however when I had a K-140 it seemed less defined in the mid area (even though they are both rated up to 2.5 khz), perhaps using the E-140 as the higher speaker might not be such a bad idea with regards to tonality however the E series has a pretty beefy magnet/frame structure which aside from 'fitting' issues might also make the cab top heavy, of course the old E-130 was extremely defined in the upper mid band and would be a great compliment to either the E or K-140. Anyway having a cab with both K & E-140's sounds like a decent set up -good luck and have a great day.

[D.M.N.]

Originally Posted by RS66LB

I used to play through a E-140 in a small 'cube' type single 15 cab (roughly 17"x17x17), it sounded great for bass in that it has a smooth low end and ok definition however when I had a K-140 it seemed less defined in the mid area (even though they are both rated up to 2.5 khz), perhaps using the E-140 as the higher speaker might not be such a bad idea with regards to tonality however the E series has a pretty beefy magnet/frame structure which aside from 'fitting' issues might also make the cab top heavy, of course the old E-130 was extremely defined in the upper mid band and would be a great compliment to either the E or K-140. Anyway having a cab with both K & E-140's sounds like a decent set up -good luck and have a great day.

I'm surprised to hear that about the K-140. In my experience, the K is very well defined in the mids, in fact being quite strong. However, it should be noted that this perception of lack of mids in your case could be partially cab design and amp, and same for my experience, as I often crank the mids for definition on my amp.

[Sartori]

Also, as edbass noted, the 2000S has a lot more room inside, and so you can fit drivers with larger magnets in there. They may not necessarily sound great, depending on what they are (EV's sound great), but they'll fit.

[RS66LB]

Originally Posted by D.M.N.

I'm surprised to hear that about the K-140. In my experience, the K is very well defined in the mids, in fact being quite strong. However, it should be noted that this perception of lack of mids in your case could be partially cab design and amp, and same for my experience, as I often crank the mids for definition on my amp.

true, plus the K-140 I had was quite old and may have lost some of its original attributes, the E-140 was actually brand new at the time so I think you're correct in the comparison

[mattoreg]

Originally Posted by edbass

The kits are interchangeable between D, K and E series, and as 4Mal posts the motors and baskets of the 130 and 140 version of each series are identical.
Factory D kits have gone the way of the dinosaur, as have factory K kits. The E kit is a drop in replacement for either the D or K, but they are also discontinued and getting rare/expensive, and it doesn't get you an E series.
It’s more the motors than the cones that tonally differentiates between the defunct JBL MI speaker lineups.

I have D's and K's with E kits, and they both pretty much sound like a K series rather than an E series.

The biggest difference between the D and K series is the power handling capacity. When the D series was in its heyday a 100 watt amp was a freekin' monster, the driver was conservatively rated for maybe 75 watts, and when the K came out in '73? amps were getting bigger; largely by virtue of a stronger, stiffer suspension it was now rated at still conservative 150 watts. Both drivers have that sweet AlNiCo motor that IMO give them a very "musical" property; nice high end extension, smooth mids and decently tight bottom.

AlNiCo was getting expensive and ceramic magnet materials were more cost efficient as well as mechanically efficient so when the E series came out it had a ceramic motor. Handled 200 watts, but didn't quite sound the same as the AlNiCo drivers.

I think the E and K would probably work together in the Sunn cab, might sound bitchin’, might sound like ass, BUT here's the “rub” as far as Oren's dilemma; I don't think the E series will fit in the 200S cab. I have several 200S cabs but no E series drivers so I don't know for sure, but the AlNiCo JBLs barely squeak in there as it is.

Yo edbass, question about your D-40 sunn rig. I tried to pm, but got kicked denied as your account is too full. pm me! Cheers,
Matt