Is it just me or do 15PR400's sound boxy?
Been struggling with this for a while and curious if it's characteristic of 15PR400's or just me.
If it's just me, I have two theories for why it sounds boxy:
1. Before loading the speaker into the first box, I accidentally sat a chair leg on the cone. (I know, idiot move.) It creased a little at the contact point but otherwise was intact.
2. The boxes are bass-shy. The first is a ported box w/ Vb = 3.1cf and fb = 39Hz iirc, which has a high-ish and slow roll off. The second box is a small 1.25cf sealed box. Both WinISD models didn't look terrible, and actually I thought the sealed box would be great because it's not too far off the classic SVT fridge curve with a bit of a low-mid hump. Both of these though might just be too shy in the 60Hz-80Hz range for the inherent flatness of the Faital.
If it's the speaker, what should I look for in the FR plot?
I've compared it to a bunch of different speakers over the last couple months and it's the boxiest of them all, and in both the ported and sealed boxes. FWIW, the 16 ohm 12PR300 in a similar sealed box (1 cf) did not sound boxy to me at all. It sounded really well balanced. So for now, I'll assume it's not my ears.
Thoughts? Hoping to learn something from this.
Try adding a bit of a low mid and bass boost on the amplifier. I've found slightly boxy sounding high performance woofers (in too small of a cab / too high of a tuning) to be quite friendly to EQ work. I stuck an 18FH500 in a Kustom 118B. It was disappointing. The woofer held up but was choked by the tiny chamber. An MCM 15" woofer with an adapter ring performs much better under about 60 Hz and above 120 Hz than the Faital in that particular box. I think they're good at what they were engineered to do and a lot of that is being flat in the proper box. Either way, they take EQ well.
Hmm, in general too small and tuned too high leads to an exaggerated hump in that 60-80Hz range -- the opposite problem I'm having.
I've had some success with adding lows, but my amps with 3-band EQ don't provide enough control to get beef without boom. So it's been a dance with the Bass knob and the FDeck HPF to try and get just the right range boosted.
Ideally the cab wouldn't require me to struggle like this...
The sealed box has an fc of 88hz, 13dB point is approx 75hz. It has a 2db hump between 80 and 300hz.
That the ported one sounds boxy is strange...got any lining in that cab?
The sealed one will sound very bass shy, the ported one shouldn't.
If they would really sound boxy by themselves DukeLeJeune wouldn't use this driver in a high-end home audio design ;)
The ported cab is lined with mattress topper. The sealed cab has poly fill.
I know they get a lot of love, so I was just surprised to be hearing this. It's subtle, but when A/Bing it, it's more obvious. I don't think I care enough to get another one to see if it's just this particular speaker, though.
I really had high hopes for the sealed box -- thought it'd be little punchy box of rock -- but it's just not doing it for me.
The ported box is tuned very low...mimicking sealed cab response. Raising the tuning some will give more output right in the 80hz area you feel is lacking.
The sealed box....not much you can do other than trying varying amounts/types of stuffing.
Then it's time to hit the woodshed again and build that 2xfaital 5FE120 horn-reflex cab ;)
Cute cab though :cool:
I haven't heard those Faitals in person. They are said to be very smooth and pretty "wide range" for a single driver. It may not have excessive output in the "boxy" range....rather lacking a little in the 60-150hz "fat" range in those alignments to balance it out.
The tuning is low, but the difference there is going to be really minimal when you raise it.
What's lining the inside of the cab? Changing to a denser material (e.g. from cotton stuff to fiberglass or denim insulation) can make a big difference.
* Usually when I find people really dislike the sound of a cab, it's something going on in the midrange or the upper bass region. If it isn't able to be fixed with EQ, it's usually either:
1) Totally insufficient bass output for the application - the 15PR400 should be OK for most people who are used to traditional bass cabs. Coming from a FEarful or something you may be ruined :)
2) Something crazy going on in mids
It's really hard to fix a box that's not stiff enough or improperly damped with EQ.
I have a new cab that is loaded with 2 Faital 15PR400's.
It does not sound "boxy" to me at all. It does sound very close to what I remember my old D140F loaded cabs sounding like. Very paper cone/woody sounding, with nice depth to the midrange, decent low end extension, and good top end without too much "air" or sizzle (there is no tweet in this new box). So, a very rich, full sound, in a box that responds to EQ very well.
I did have something of an issue with what I thought was resonance in the area of C2, but it turns out that it was really more about my room than the cab (a bit of a standing wave about 4-6 ft from the cab).
If you are unhappy with the sound of your cabinet then it's time for experimentation. I would start by playing with tone controls and equalizers. You might not fully achieve what you seek with them but you should be able to hear at least some improvement with them.
After that, it's time for cabinet tweaking. In JBL's speaker cabinet construction manual they recommend putting the inner lining material on opposite faces. In other words, lining on one face and the face opposite that should be unlined. This means three of the six faces would be lined. It also mentions that the cabinet lining will change its midrange voicing so this could be something to investigate.
Best of luck with it.
The current tuning that astack choose for the bigger ported cab was totally right for optimal "smooth" tuning without bumps (simulated it in AJhorn). Raising it will not do much, it may sound a bit more " fuller" but it will not take away the boxines.
All I can say now is that you should try to turn the eq down in a specific area, use that mid freq sweep knob and try to find the spot. Boxines is mostly due too to much output in the 400-800hz range. If you can't find it then either the range of the knob isn't sufficient or there's really something else going on.
Thanks for the input guys. The sealed cab is a cheap test cab made of 1/2 MDF with stiffeners on each face. I'm sure there's some coloration there. The ported cab is a composite box, so I don't think there's much coloration with that one.
Well I played a bit today with my new-to-me DB750 and the sealed 15PR400. A bit of bass boost, a touch of cutting mids at 400Hz, with the deep switch on, its sounding reeeeaaally good. So far anything I plug this head into though is pretty glorious, so I'm kind of cheating now. This was all solo so far. Hopefully will get to hear how good it does in a practice soon.
How is the fiberglass joinery on the composite box? Braces effective/ anchored good? Are the drivers broken in?
Arjank is right on about the "boxy" sound happening 400-800hz. That area is also the range of panel, and/or panel-to-panel resonance.
I would inspect all the little physical/mechanical, miniscule stuff. If it turns out fine, ok cool, you know everything's solid.
The composite cab is the one I did a bajillion page thread on last year. It's butt jointed, but with glass overlap on the outside and filleting on the inside. Stiffener across the back panel. I *think* it's pretty solid.
I tried it in a band setting last week, and I wasn't that enamored with it. Just too tight, even with as much bass boost as I could bring myself to dump on the pricy speaker. A 2x15 would probably do it, but again just too much SPL for my situation ATM.
I have no experience at cab building but I did install a 15PR400 in my Aguilar DB 115. Before the speaker police jump in I did have someone run WinSD for me prior to making the switch. Besides turning an excellent cab into an absolutely great one, the first thing that was noticeable was a reduction in the slight boxy, hooded character that bothered me with the original Eminence woofer. :)
|All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:12 AM.|
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.12
Copyright ©2000 - 2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.