Just when I thought I was happy with my rig...

[dbase]

I played a benefit in a very large room with 30 ft ceilings carpeted floors and a large indoor swimming pool at one end.
It was a big hotel party. I had my full rig 4x10 and LH500. Sound check said to turn it down. I never do. People arrive we started to play and Im not quite happy with the sound. I'm standing in front of my amp and I cant hear myself. I'm just equal or getting behind the drummer in sound level. I like to stand out as the songs require a bass presence. I had the volume at 6 out of 10. I'm a little bummed out thinking I have to upgrade AGAIN to something bigger. What to do?

[froghat]

Go with the sound check recommendation. Odd rooms like that almost guarantee that what you hear is not what the room hears. Better yet, send a DI to the PA so the sound guy can tweak you as the room fills.

[carlos840]

Originally Posted by froghat

Go with the sound check recommendation. Odd rooms like that almost guarantee that what you hear is not what the room hears. Better yet, send a DI to the PA so the sound guy can tweak you as the room fills.

+1

Stage sound is no representation of FOH!

[Sundogue]

A fEARful will help with that kind of problem. Some people don't want to believe it, but the mid driver on a fEARful and it's placement relative to the woofer gives you a lot of clarity in ALL listening positions.

The best part is, not only can you get your sound onstage the way you like it, you'll hear yourself better no matter where you stand, and so will others in your band...AND it mixes very well with the PA.

I've experienced this myself. I play regularly at a club where the sound is terrible, especially for the low end. No matter how loud I turn up and no matter how I EQ the bass always sounded like mud and all I could hear was guitars and drums. The bass was nothing more than a droning sound. And that was with my own designed cabs even. Once I built my fEARful 15/6 and played there again, ALL my sound issues went away. Not only could I hear myself easily, the mix out front was so easy to set because the clarity of that cab doesn't interfere with the bass in the PA.

Part of the problem with a 410 is two sets of vertical tens placed side by side. You are going to have problems hearing yourself from various listening positions because the speakers next to each other will cancel out certain frequencies relative to your position to the cab. That's why a lot of people will recommend stacking two 210's vertically instead of using a 410 alignment. Unfortunately, clarity off-axis (not standing right in front of your cab) is seldom a consideration when choosing a bass cab.

If you are going to try a different cab because of what you experienced, try a fEARful 15/6, or at the very least a nEARful (like an Avatar TB153 or something from LDS). You'll get just as much, if not more, volume than you will from your 410 and the clarity will blow you away.

[dbase]

I have never played with them stacked like in my avatar picture. I play them horizonal on top of one another. I'm from the old school, I prefer back line rather than PA. Sounds too much like canned music everything coming out of the PA. We have vocals from the PA and sometime the keyboard. I will try playing like us suggested next time.

Thanks

[jeff7bass]

EQ'ing the mids up and the lows down should correct the problem with the room.

[SnoMan]

Dbase, in my opinion, you can't win 'em all. You can keep upgrading to a huge setup, but you're sure to find a situation where it won't cut it. If you're running into a PA you've gotta trust that they're gonna do you justice and know the sound the band is seeking. It BLOWS to not be able to hear yourself live, so I can understand and appreciate your frustration. I just say don't let one bad night ruin the way you look at your rig if it's done you right before.

[Savage_Dreams]

i would say there is absolutely nothing wrong with your rig, and there was probably nothing wrong with your sound in the room. you just cant judge the sound of the room by whats on stage. it can suck, but its just something you have to live with. thats why i like to have a wireless. i can go to the back of the room and check the overall sound myself.

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by dbase

I have never played with them stacked like in my avatar picture. I play them horizonal on top of one another. I'm from the old school, I prefer back line rather than PA. Sounds too much like canned music everything coming out of the PA. We have vocals from the PA and sometime the keyboard. I will try playing like us suggested next time.

Thanks

I guarantee that of you play your 210's vertically stacked you will hear them with much more clarity. You will especially notice the difference off axis as you move around on stage.

As the speakers beam spreads out (in the mids where your tone and clarity are) the speakers' beam pattern, when side by side, cancel each other out at different frequencies, causing them to just disappear completely.

This will not be as noticeable if you stand right directly in front of your cab. That's why so many people just love their cabs when they are checking them out or if they play only in front of them. Then when they get to a weird room, or they move around on a gig they wonder what happened to that great sound.

A side benefit of vertical stacking of your 210 cabs is that the top cab's speakers will be closer to your ears.

[gnjpowell]

You need to trust your sound guy, if he sucks then get a new sound guy!

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by Savage_Dreams

i would say there is absolutely nothing wrong with your rig, and there was probably nothing wrong with your sound in the room. you just cant judge the sound of the room by whats on stage. it can suck, but its just something you have to live with. thats why i like to have a wireless. i can go to the back of the room and check the overall sound myself.

The sound onstage contributes a ton to the overall sound of the room, even with a PA. A PA only adds to what is already there. It isn't as if the stage is a separate soundproof booth where people out front only hear the PA. They are hearing a wash of sound coming from ALL sources.

If you want your PA to sound clean and clear, you have to get your sound onstage cleaned up first. In his case, he can easily rectify that by vertically stacking his 210 cabs. Then it's just a matter of cutting offending frequencies that the room is naturally enhancing by it's size, dimensions, and surfaces.

[stflbn]

Stack em so you can hear yourself... 'if' you want ot hear yourself.

[SnoMan]

This vertically stacking 210's thing has always worried me. Do you guys strap them to a dolly or what? I would be terrified by the idea of the whole rig toppling over. I've played on many unstable/uneven stages before and even on solid ground I would worry about someone(myself included) bumping the rig slightly and then watching gravity take it's effect.

[bassybill]

Originally Posted by dbase

I played a benefit in a very large room with 30 ft ceilings carpeted floors and a large indoor swimming pool at one end.
It was a big hotel party. I had my full rig 4x10 and LH500. Sound check said to turn it down. I never do. People arrive we started to play and Im not quite happy with the sound. I'm standing in front of my amp and I cant hear myself. I'm just equal or getting behind the drummer in sound level. I like to stand out as the songs require a bass presence. I had the volume at 6 out of 10. I'm a little bummed out thinking I have to upgrade AGAIN to something bigger. What to do?

Roll off the lows, boost the low mids to compensate a little if you can. Don't stand right in front of your amp. Sometimes it's hard to hear yourself in a very much less than ideal room.

If the sound guy says turn down, then TURN DOWN. You were probably blasting out front. And therefore you maybe don't need "something bigger".

EDIT - I just noticed you're using a pair of (sealed) 210XLs. I have one of those, it's not a really powerful full range cab, although it did work well bi-amped with my 115XL. So, you might need something louder after all. Sorry.

Seriously, though, the old ported 2.5XL was a much better cab, although bigger and a lot heavier. Two of those would be killer if you can find them or if Larry decides to reintroduce something similar. But heeeaaavvvyyyy...

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by SnoMan

This vertically stacking 210's thing has always worried me. Do you guys strap them to a dolly or what? I would be terrified by the idea of the whole rig toppling over. I've played on many unstable/uneven stages before and even on solid ground I would worry about someone(myself included) bumping the rig slightly and then watching gravity take it's effect.

It depends on how stable the rig is. One can always put latches on the cabs, put them on a dolly that is wider than the footprint of the cab's side, etc. You can even being along some short 2X4's and set them on that to help span the stage area a bit more if the stage is just "spongy" or weak in spots. Anything that improves stability.

Not that hard to figure out.

[cnltb]

Originally Posted by dbase

I played a benefit in a very large room with 30 ft ceilings carpeted floors and a large indoor swimming pool at one end.
It was a big hotel party. I had my full rig 4x10 and LH500. Sound check said to turn it down. I never do. People arrive we started to play and Im not quite happy with the sound. I'm standing in front of my amp and I cant hear myself. I'm just equal or getting behind the drummer in sound level. I like to stand out as the songs require a bass presence. I had the volume at 6 out of 10. I'm a little bummed out thinking I have to upgrade AGAIN to something bigger. What to do?

Maybe you were just standing too close to your amp and had problems hearing yourself because of that?

[steve_rolfeca]

+1 on a couple if things mentioned here.

Get a long cord (or a wireless if you have money to burn). It can be a real eye-opener to hear your favorite on-stage tone turn into mush out in the hall. Makes you approach the EQ on your amp with a whole new attitude.

Never tried a fEarful, but I've been using other 3-way cabs for years, and they're much less affected by bad room acoustics. If that tone isn't your bag, at least stack your 2*10's vertically for better clarity and more sound in your ear.

And never refuse to turn down without checking out the situation for yourself. Before I learned about the long cord trick, I was the stubborn xxxx-head ruining the mix on more than one occasion. It's pretty embarrassing once you realize you're at fault...

[SnoMan]

Originally Posted by Sundogue

It depends on how stable the rig is. One can always put latches on the cabs, put them on a dolly that is wider than the footprint of the cab's side, etc. You can even being along some short 2X4's and set them on that to help span the stage area a bit more if the stage is just "spongy" or weak in spots. Anything that improves stability.

Not that hard to figure out.

No, I think it's actually pretty tricky to figure out. Having any solution to a problem doesn't make it an appropriate solution for the situation.

We're dealing with Hartke XL 210's in this case. I owned one in the past and I'll tell you, I would never trust stacking a pair vertically. To my knowledge they weren't designed to be stacked in that manner. Adding latches to the cabs and then strapping the pair to a dolly may be the best way to resolve stability issues. However, if a bassists rig is comprised of a pair of 2x10's I have to wonder if they'll want to tote around a dolly as well.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by carlos840

Stage sound is no representation of FOH!

I don't know how many times this has to be said before it sinks in.

Originally Posted by Savage_Dreams

i would say there is absolutely nothing wrong with your rig, and there was probably nothing wrong with your sound in the room. you just cant judge the sound of the room by whats on stage. it can suck, but its just something you have to live with.

Agreed. Don't change your rig because of one gig. It may have sounded fin out front, maybe not, but unless you plan to play this venue frequently, I wouldn't go changing anything that you seemed to be happy with otherwise.

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by SnoMan

No, I think it's actually pretty tricky to figure out. Having any solution to a problem doesn't make it an appropriate solution for the situation.

We're dealing with Hartke XL 210's in this case. I owned one in the past and I'll tell you, I would never trust stacking a pair vertically. To my knowledge they weren't designed to be stacked in that manner. Adding latches to the cabs and then strapping the pair to a dolly may be the best way to resolve stability issues. However, if a bassists rig is comprised of a pair of 2x10's I have to wonder if they'll want to tote around a dolly as well.

Don't know about that. One doesn't need to "add" a dolly to it. I've even made my 110/6 cabs, head and storage/stand into it's own dolly/cart...

If we are smart enough to learn to play bass, surely we can figure out how to stack a couple of cabs safely. it ain't rocket science.