Kappalite 3012HO matching my cab

NickCormier · #1 12-10-2010, 11:46 PM

Ok, time has finally come to upgrade the Basslite to the Kappalite for my cab. The cab is staying regardless, so dont suggest selling that, wont happen. Its custom made for me and it wont be going ever.

Its a 1x12, right now sealed (with the option to unscrew the back to make it a half-open back, but its tightly sealed, has to be forced out)

I will be willing to make some vent holes, Im assuming I will need it for a Kappalite.

Inside dimensions are roughly 19.5" W - 14.5" H - 14" D

So can someone calculate what I will need with those dimensions to make a Kappalite 3012HO be optimized? Like I said, Im willing to add vent holes, so it'd be nice to know how large/etc.

Also considering a deltalite maybe, although I am looking for basically PA-range, with decent enough bass for a 5 string. I have an extension cab that will cover the low bass even more when needed.

Edit; Im also kinda considering the Deltalite.. would that fit better? Its much cheaper, and I hear great reviews as a standalone driver.. so hmm.

rpsands · #2 12-10-2010, 11:54 PM

You want from 1.2 to 2 cubic feet for a kappalite roughly. You are on the high side of that, about 2 cubic feet net (after driver and stuffing displacement and tube port and handles, etc).

I'd recommend either two flared 3" ports about 5 1/4" long or two 4" ports 10 and 1/4" long, for a tuning in the range of 50hz.

NickCormier · #3 12-11-2010, 12:12 AM

Ok.

Im also considering a Deltalite potentially.. How would that work out in this cab?

rpsands · #4 12-11-2010, 12:54 AM

It depends on the tone profile and amount of volume/wattage you expect.

The deltalite has a much more "typical" bass tone -- little bit of upper bass bump, smoother rolloff, wants a lower tuning (around 40hz in that box is how I would roll). The Kappalite has a lot more mids and a lit less going on under 200hz relative to its midrange sensitivity.

If you want it to be a PA cab, you will require a horn so keep that in mind. Neither one has enough top end extension, midrange dispersion or clarity to be used as a vocal driver without a crossover by 2khz or so at the upper most.

* For the deltalite, use one 4" flared port 7.66" long for a tuning close to 40hz.]

* also note, all port lengths are approximate and will get you fairly close. I would recommend you get much better measurements of your interior volume (e.g. figure out the exact dimensions, how much your woofer displaces, how much the handles displace, try to get a rough idea of how much your lining displaces). I have found this calculator to be pretty solid for tube ports: http://www.carstereo.com/help/Articles.cfm?id=31 -- seems accurate for shelf ports too but those are a little more finnicky sometimes.

NickCormier · #5 12-11-2010, 07:48 AM

sorry, I should of clarified on the PA part; Im not really interested in vocals, but mainly just bass and electric guitar. So, from what I understand from classic guitar speakers, they usually only go up to 4khz or 5khz.. Of course, theres the "character" of the speakers that make classic guitar speakers what they are, but I am using cab modelling for guitar so ideally, a speaker that is relatively flat but doesnt add too much muddiness in the bass, like my Basslite does right now.

4Mal · #6 12-11-2010, 09:10 AM

I double. I have yet to hear a bass speaker that saisfies my needs for guitar. I have tried a bunch... IMO if you're serious about your tone, you dedicate a cab to each and suck it up when it comes to moving stuff.

NickCormier · #7 12-11-2010, 10:34 AM

I'll disagree with that, im sure its possible. Like I said, im using modelling setups (think Axe-FX, high end models), so i dont care about getting a "25w breakup marshall tone" like most guitarists want. I just need a speaker that has a flat enough response and covers the frequency range, then with proper EQing and using your amp correctly, the speaker shouldnt make a difference.

Maybe you should of tried changing your settings on your guitar head or adding an EQ with all those speakers you tried, it makes a huge difference. I can play a guitar gig with my basslite right now and 99% of the audience wouldnt be able to tell the difference, but I have to EQ the **** out of it, thats why im opting for a deltalite or kappalite which is more PA based rather than dedicated bass speakers, so I only need minimal EQing

IntrepidCellist · #8 12-11-2010, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NickCormier

I'll disagree with that, im sure its possible. Like I said, im using modelling setups (think Axe-FX, high end models), so i dont care about getting a "25w breakup marshall tone" like most guitarists want. I just need a speaker that has a flat enough response and covers the frequency range, then with proper EQing and using your amp correctly, the speaker shouldnt make a difference.

Maybe you should of tried changing your settings on your guitar head or adding an EQ pedal with all those speakers you tried, it makes a huge difference. I can play a guitar gig with my basslite right now and 99% of the audience wouldnt be able to tell the difference, but I have to EQ the **** out of it, thats why im opting for a deltalite or kappalite which is more PA based rather than dedicated bass speakers, so I only need minimal EQing

I'm sorry, but the bolded text above is flawed reasoning. Speakers make a *huge* difference, even when dealing with fully parametric EQs and infinitesmal tone-shaping parameters. And the more stuff you have to throw in your signal to get it to sound good, the tougher it is to tweak it quickly in a live setting.

You've been fighting this battle for a long time, for what many would consider negligible benefits. Honestly, it'd be cheaper, easier, and simpler to go with one cab for each.

I can play my guitar through my bass rig, and I can even play my guitar amp through my bass cabs; however, it just flat out sounds better through the guitar cabs, and I have a *very* nice, very even and sweet-sounding cab that's pretty flat in the relevant musical instrument region in the Audiokinesis Thunderchild.

That way, I don't have to use ridiculous in-loop EQ settings to get rid of harshness and attenuate bottom end; it's just simple plug-and play, and if I need to change something frequency-wise to compensate for a room or while jamming I can just grab the knob and twist, rather than fiddle with sliders or dive into the deep-editing menus on a digital effects unit or preamp (which is really annoying when all you need is a little lower-mid bump or a touch less treble, and you're mid-song or in the short break between songs.)

It's certainly *possible* but I would argue that it is hardly *optimal.*

NickCormier · #9 12-11-2010, 11:12 AM

The point is, and as I listed in the main post (guess I should of bolded it and underlined it a thousand times, as I knew someone would chime in "just get two cabs") I am not changing my cab. It is specially made to hold a specific setup I am running that is perfectly optimized to the situation, and was purposely left without front-ported holes when made by the custom builder so that when I found a speaker that was proper, I can just route them out after calculating. I guarantee there is NOTHING similar to it on the market in terms of specs without going for another custom, which is pointless when this one is exactly what I want.

So if dont have anything to add on the actual topic of the thread, Please dont bother posting at all. I am only interested in hearing about the optimization of the Kappalite or Deltalite with the dimensions I have given, nothing else.

greenboy · #10 12-11-2010, 11:13 AM

Sure. Take all the fun out of it.

IntrepidCellist · #11 12-11-2010, 11:24 AM

If it's so perfectly optimized to the situation, how come you want to change the speaker?

Seems awfully pointless to me. More money, more headaches, all so you don't have to have a second small 1x12 sitting around. But, it's your money.

rpsands · #12 12-11-2010, 11:29 AM

I wouldn't bother using a deltalite/kappalite as a guitar doubling cabinet unless you are using some speaker simulation in your guitar rig. It'll sound like a bag of dried turkey peckers.

IntrepidCellist · #13 12-11-2010, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpsands

I wouldn't bother using a deltalite/kappalite as a guitar doubling cabinet unless you are using some speaker simulation in your guitar rig. It'll sound like a bag of dried turkey peckers.

He's using a modeler, so that doesn't really matter. I just don't see what utility he plans to gain by having an all-in-one cab, unless he's playing bass and guitar through the same rig at the same gig. It just seems like an unnecessary and expensive compromise, whatever way you cut it.

greenboy · #14 12-11-2010, 11:47 AM

Ideal for "live" modeling: studio-monitor like frequency response, but with specialist tendencies for higher SPL and any distortion usage. Regardless of the of the input signal's instrumental range, it actually works well to go that route.

It only becomes problematic when some range of the cab is too peaky or too scoopy. Then disparities show up, and EQ problems arise. Normally though, when things are not poorly suited for the task, you hardly have to EQ beyond using the appropriate cab/amp model.

It's actually a lot easier than dual purpose cabs WITHOUT modeling.

IntrepidCellist · #15 12-11-2010, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenboy

Ideal for "live" modeling: studio-monitor like frequency response, but with specialist tendencies for higher SPL and any distortion usage. Regardless of the of the input signal's instrumental range, it actually works well to go that route.

It only becomes problematic when some range of the cab is too peaky or too scoopy. Then disparities show up, and EQ problems arise. Normally though, when things are not poorly suited for the task, you hardly have to EQ beyond using the appropriate cab/amp model.

It's actually a lot easier than dual purpose cabs WITHOUT modeling.

Right. But a one-way 1x12? I'd have picked a completely different form factor for that, especially if I needed to be able to get enough volume out of it to use it for stage monitoring with bass. As you have shown us, it's rather tough to get a somewhat "flat" frequency response throughout the useful musical instrument range with just one driver. My Thunderchild could probably do it, and a 12/6 or 12/6/1 would probably work just as well.

greenboy · #16 12-11-2010, 11:50 AM

I don't think we are allowed to talk about that directly though.

rpsands · #17 12-11-2010, 12:25 PM

I'd be more concerned with polar response than flatness. The deltalites/kappalites 'full range' speakers are reasonably correctable on the top end - but the polar response up there sucks.

* I've gigged a single 1x12 with 3012HO several times, so please don't accuse me of theorymongering. The bigger the room the more obvious it is to me that when you're off-axis to such a cabinet you can't hear as much of the midrange. This isn't as critical to my bass tone but it would be critical to a guitarist's tone.

IntrepidCellist · #18 12-11-2010, 01:23 PM

^ To be fair, the poor polar response bit is a pretty consistent variable for any guitar amp. I mean, most guitar rigs use 12" speakers, and often stick them right next to each other in arbitrarily-sized or open-back speaker arrangements.

rpsands · #19 12-11-2010, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IntrepidCellist

^ To be fair, the poor polar response bit is a pretty consistent variable for any guitar amp. I mean, most guitar rigs use 12" speakers, and often stick them right next to each other in arbitrarily-sized or open-back speaker arrangements.

Unless you mic the guitar and run it through a PA.

DukeLeJeune · #20 12-11-2010, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NickCormier

...ideally, a speaker that is relatively flat but doesnt add too much muddiness in the bass, like my Basslite does right now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NickCormier

I am only interested in hearing about the optimization of the Kappalite or Deltalite with the dimensions I have given, nothing else.

Go with the Kappalite then, and follow rpsands' recommendations.