Kemper Profiling pre-amp it's for Bass too

[rick4001s]

Hello
I just bought Kemper Profiling Amp and it is simply amazing!
Anyone else have one?
I would love to get profiles of a Hiwatt DR-201, Marshall Super Bass and Ampeg SVT. Can anyone help?

[seamonkey]

Nice

Kemper forums would be a good place to mine for profiles.

Here's an Idea, Pick up a copy of Amplitube custom shop and try out some of their models. If you like them you can profile them through the Kemper. Actually profile any software modeler you like. Most have demo's you can try.

[kringle77]

I've got to admit, the examples comparing some amps I know very well to the kempler sims is shocking and pretty much every one says that the sims "feel" like real amps which is where all sims seem to suffer. If it was in a rackmount and alittle more affordable, I'd probably buy one. I see that people have already simulated popular bass amps like eden, genz, etc.

[Flux Jetson]

I think this technology is here to stay. I sends out a set of test signals through the "donor amp" that it records and uses to create a profile of the device that produced it (much the same way that an RTA uses noise to create an image of a room). Once the amp's profile is collected, the profiler then calculates what it will need to recreate that same profile, which is nothing at all like modeling. The profile can be further refined by recording even more sounds made while the amp is being played. This is WAY different than "modeling". Modeling is 8-track tape vs CD when compared to this technology.

I believe that you're going to see a lot more of this tech used on the near horizon. There have been any number of snooty-snoot-snooter guitar players that have become believers. You'll always have skeptics, not long ago we were told that the Earth was the center of the universe, the Sun was made of coal, and the Columbus was going to fall off the edge of the Earth.

As this tech progresses and is refined, I think it's applications will be applied to many things not even considered yet. This is as inspiring as "sampling" was in the 80s.

And at $2k it's less expensive than an SVT or an Orange.

[Flux Jetson]

I also gotta wonder how far they are from profiling actual instruments. So if the sound of a (let's say) Ric played through an SVT was profiled .. will your J sound like the Ric now?

For that matter, what of human vocals? Profile some singer, then when someone else sings ~through~ the profiling gadget they'd sound like the famous singer. There's a thousand problems with that notion, I'm just letting my imagination run with it.

[mjac28]

Line 6 Jr

[JGR]

Axe FX has the ability to capture rigs now with what they are calling tone matching, so it still seems like a better deal given all the extra inherent goodness it comes with.

[seamonkey]

Originally Posted by Flux Jetson

I think this technology is here to stay. I sends out a set of test signals through the "donor amp" that it records and uses to create a profile of the device that produced it (much the same way that an RTA uses noise to create an image of a room). Once the amp's profile is collected, the profiler then calculates what it will need to recreate that same profile, which is nothing at all like modeling. The profile can be further refined by recording even more sounds made while the amp is being played. This is WAY different than "modeling". Modeling is 8-track tape vs CD when compared to this technology.

I believe that you're going to see a lot more of this tech used on the near horizon. There have been any number of snooty-snoot-snooter guitar players that have become believers. You'll always have skeptics, not long ago we were told that the Earth was the center of the universe, the Sun was made of coal, and the Columbus was going to fall off the edge of the Earth.

As this tech progresses and is refined, I think it's applications will be applied to many things not even considered yet. This is as inspiring as "sampling" was in the 80s.

And at $2k it's less expensive than an SVT or an Orange.

Many Modelers do take into account dynamic behaviors. IK Multimedia Amplitube Free, does this. It's a plugin, It's free, and you an try many certified amp models. Including many SS amps, and effect pedals. But these are "golden reference amps" ones that best depict the amps of the type. So they won't sound like the same model amp someone might own, as each may be different.

The Kemper's big advantage is you can capture your own amps, pre-amps, and some types of effects.

I can bet that they do eventually come out with a plugin to allow playing back all the lib of captured profile of amps. And a whole secondary market of captured "star" amps for sale.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Flux Jetson

And at $2k it's less expensive than an SVT or an Orange.

SVT-CL is $1800.

[Flux Jetson]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

SVT-CL is $1800.

Oh well ... everwhat.

I'm sure if you looked around you could locate a Kemper for roughly the same. Once shipping is added the SVT may be over the top at 90 pounds shipping weight. And the SVT cannot be used without a cab (or an attenuator if we wish to get picky). And the profiler won't need $600 worth of tubes a some point either.

Nevertheless, my point still stands. For less than $2k you end up with far more than one SVT. You can even profile your mic'd Ampeg tone and have that sent to the recording desk or the FOH without having to deal with an 80 pound head, a 110 pound cab, a mic and a mic preamp. The advantages are clear.

My guess is the price of this technology will drop pretty hard once competition creeps in, and it will do nothing but get better and better performing as well.

[mjac28]

I'm sure it sounds fantastic and the technology is incredible but artificial strawberry still tastes like artificial strawberry.

[Bassmec]

I see Andy Sneep has found a use for it. So it can't suck that much but I won't be going there, as I earn my money being known for using the real thing.
Andy is partly responsible for the whole movement toward more artificial sounding Metal records.
Among the top Yorkshire based studios, I have always thought Colin Richardson as a producer, had a more real, less viciously bright over the top guitar sound and less of a overly clicky triggerd kik drum.
I will carry on with real amps and will be trying to get more of the sound from the live drum kit and less from triggers for my Metal Band customer list.
You don't really need a big studio to do what Andy does you can get something like that from in the box and no real live room.

[seamonkey]

I can't find strawberries that taste like strawberries
new store type look ripe when they are not. They ship better this way. They are grown from clippings and not seeds. And bannanas no longer have seeds. They are all clones. Who knows what a real strawbery or banna tastes like.

Metaphores aside, this tech is here now and taking off!

[Flux Jetson]

I'm a keyboard player first and a bass player second (if you can call what I do "playing bass" -- even though I've been committed to it since 1992 I'm still a crappy rock-hack). My hope is that this technology will be used to create a well profiled Hammond. The Hammond console organ is a complex critter with many sounds available from a menu of analog sinewave harmonics and simple volume controls for each one of the harmonics. Sounds simple, but it's been one of the most difficult things to properly "copy" using either solid state or digital technology to do so. In the studio there's no reason not to use my 1962 Hammond A102 or my 1955 Hammond M3. But playing out I'm not willing to drag those solid stone pieces of furniture from gig to gig anymore. I did it for years, hauled around a 300 pound organ and a 200 pound Leslie. You don't make many friends that way! Especially when your bandmates can't hear the difference between 500 pounds of electromechanical technology and 14 pounds of digital technology.

So my hope is that this new technology will be employed to create a better Hammond clone than what is currently available. Some might say "Hey, our KB player uses an XYZ Hammond clone and it sounds great!" .... yea ... to the non-organ player it does. But just like bass players can hear the difference between a $75 crapper starter bass and a $3.5k Warwick (that the casual listener would not be able to differentiate between the two) a Hammond player can tell the difference between what most people say "sounds just great" in a clone and the real deal.

So this new technology has many people hopeful of it being "The Next Big Thing". Solid State held that promise, then it was digital FM, then it was Sampling, and then it was digital modeling, today it's profiling. Funny thing is all of those other technologies have all found valid uses in their own rights.

If what I asked about is truly doable (profiling a Ric through an SVT .... now will your modern Spector sound like a classic passive Ric through an SVT?) ... then bass guitar ethos has become similar to the midi keyboard. The human interface is the bass, and from it comes the sounds of many many other instruments. So you pick the interface (the bass) that best suits you, and it is simply the controller for the profiling element. Just in the exact same manner that a KB player picks out a midi keyboard controller that suits their needs, and uses it to command any millions of sounds and textures from various modules. The instrument is simply the interface between musician and technology. It no longer is responsible for actually producing the sound, it's merely used to control the sonic production gear. This isn't a new idea, but the idea has never had this level of power available. Line 6 and Moog have already tiptoed into this notion of using the stringed instrument as a controller to produce any number of bass guitar/amplifier/cab sounds and combinations.

With the Kemper tech, we now have more refined tone modules .... and if it is refined and taken to it's logical conclusion then bass players will now have the luxuries that keyboard players have had for decades. And not only that, but the cottage industries that will spring forth and the new "modules" that will emerge from the minds of the engineers and developers will do nothing but benefit US, the players.

Darwin. Concept.

This Kemper protocol sortof puts a new spin on the phrase Progressive Rock.

[Flux Jetson]

Originally Posted by mjac28

I'm sure it sounds fantastic and the technology is incredible but artificial strawberry still tastes like artificial strawberry.

But does that mean it's not as good?

Romantic notions don't always mean ~better~. Sometimes they do, but other times the artificial actually works out better.

For many years "synthesizers" (said with a disapproving smug snear) were branded as "artificial instruments". Today I see certain bass players clammoring to spend $2k on a Moog Taurus 3 Bass pedal setup. So ... as we can see, the ~ahem~ "artificlal synthesizer" is now thought of as something to be embraced and used to make gloriously wonderful music.

It was the romantic lamenting of the skeptics that diasapproved of the aritificial synthesizer, not because the synthesizer didn't sound good as an instrument in it's own right, but because they lacked imagination and feared change. The true geniuses learned to embrace the instruments and create music that we love and cherish. Hell the 1980s was a synthesizer!

The Kemper technology isn't aritifical, it is it's own thing. It is taking something we already know sounds good and capturing it to be processed and made practical, and who knows what might come of the profiled sounds it produces. Just like the analog synth was used to create an entirely new family of sounds which were used as they were to create all new music.

Same thing with these electric basses we all play. They are nothing but artificial stand-up acoustic basses. But we've learned to use them in their own way to create all new music.

[scotch]

Originally Posted by Flux Jetson

I'm a keyboard player first and a bass player second (if you can call what I do "playing bass" -- even though I've been committed to it since 1992 I'm still a crappy rock-hack). My hope is that this technology will be used to create a well profiled Hammond. The Hammond console organ is a complex critter with many sounds available from a menu of analog sinewave harmonics and simple volume controls for each one of the harmonics. Sounds simple, but it's been one of the most difficult things to properly "copy" using either solid state or digital technology to do so. In the studio there's no reason not to use my 1962 Hammond A102 or my 1955 Hammond M3. But playing out I'm not willing to drag those solid stone pieces of furniture from gig to gig anymore. I did it for years, hauled around a 300 pound organ and a 200 pound Leslie. You don't make many friends that way! Especially when your bandmates can't hear the difference between 500 pounds of electromechanical technology and 14 pounds of digital technology.

So my hope is that this new technology will be employed to create a better Hammond clone than what is currently available. Some might say "Hey, our KB player uses an XYZ Hammond clone and it sounds great!" .... yea ... to the non-organ player it does. But just like bass players can hear the difference between a $75 crapper starter bass and a $3.5k Warwick (that the casual listener would not be able to differentiate between the two) a Hammond player can tell the difference between what most people say "sounds just great" in a clone and the real deal.

So this new technology has many people hopeful of it being "The Next Big Thing". Solid State held that promise, then it was digital FM, then it was Sampling, and then it was digital modeling, today it's profiling. Funny thing is all of those other technologies have all found valid uses in their own rights.

If what I asked about is truly doable (profiling a Ric through an SVT .... now will your modern Spector sound like a classic passive Ric through an SVT?) ... then bass guitar ethos has become similar to the midi keyboard. The human interface is the bass, and from it comes the sounds of many many other instruments. So you pick the interface (the bass) that best suits you, and it is simply the controller for the profiling element. Just in the exact same manner that a KB player picks out a midi keyboard controller that suits their needs, and uses it to command any millions of sounds and textures from various modules. The instrument is simply the interface between musician and technology. It no longer is responsible for actually producing the sound, it's merely used to control the sonic production gear. This isn't a new idea, but the idea has never had this level of power available. Line 6 and Moog have already tiptoed into this notion of using the stringed instrument as a controller to produce any number of bass guitar/amplifier/cab sounds and combinations.

With the Kemper tech, we now have more refined tone modules .... and if it is refined and taken to it's logical conclusion then bass players will now have the luxuries that keyboard players have had for decades. And not only that, but the cottage industries that will spring forth and the new "modules" that will emerge from the minds of the engineers and developers will do nothing but benefit US, the players.

Darwin. Concept.

This Kemper protocol sortof puts a new spin on the phrase Progressive Rock.

Good post!



I wonder too, if modelling/profiling/emulation has really gotten that good, or if we are just settling as consumers for the sake of cost and convenience. I suspect it's a bit of both!

Take an iPod for instance. Mp4 sound, well,.... bad! But the portability and sheer convenience of the device/format has secured its' ubiquity! Still, you have to admit, it does require the listener settling for lower quality sound!

[johnpbass]

Originally Posted by scotch

Good post!



I wonder too, if modelling/profiling/emulation has really gotten that good, or if we are just settling as consumers for the sake of cost and convenience. I suspect it's a bit of both!

Take an iPod for instance. Mp4 sound, well,.... bad! But the portability and sheer convenience of the device/format has secured its' ubiquity! Still, you have to admit, it does require the listener settling for lower quality sound!

This is an excellent question. My writing partner (guitarist) has just picked up a Kemper for his studio. He has long been a skeptic of "modeler" type amps. He's tried various incarnations but he always said the same thing - "sounds good but the technology is still not there yet!" My friend is in love with the Kemper though. He's got a Bogner profile that sounds incredible -and he owns a Bogner (also Mesa Lone Star, Triple Rec, MarkIV, plus Peavey JSX).

I have to admit I'm still vague on how the technology works but I'm pretty impressed with what I've heard so far. There are not a lot of bass profiles out there (come on, why profile an SVT450!) but I played through a downloaded B15 profile and it sounds pretty darn good, to my ears anyway. However, I'm not a B15 tone "expert" by any stretch.

[seamonkey]

Digital is that good
There is no bit compression going on in my signal chain, nor in digital studios.
memory, storage, bandwidth, and throughput are cheap now. No need to compress bits. Even so, listening tests have shown that certain compression rates can't be heard.

Once something is in the digital domain, it is not subject to interference the wan analog circuits are. Transformation is done on the bits, to model a physical piece of gear, and it's done in the digital domain. The original gear, and modeled gear is compared, null tested, and it's the same. This isn't opinion, it's the same signal - it nulls out.

After a period of time, testing in a few months, the physical gear and model may not null out. It's not the digital that is changing. It's the analog. It drifts.

I thank gawd that some analog devices, rare, are being archived digitally for future reference. And affordable alternatives to people who actually believe their ears. Forget what's inside the box, listen to what comes out.

[johnpbass]

The amazing thing about this amp is that after you set up the baseline profile, you are able to tweak it. For example, the Kemper has a Gain knob. If you crank the gain knob, the amp reacts real time and changes the profile as if you were cranking the gain up on the original amp. You don't have to profile an amp multiple times with different gain settings. There is another control for pick attack - not sure what that is related to on an actual amp though.
I played around with a B15 profile but found that the baseline profile sounded right for what I was doing. I also found a Bassman profile that was pretty nice.
I think one of the things that's going on out in "Kemperland" is that players are profiling some of the rare amps in their collections and making them available for download.

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by johnpbass

The amazing thing about this amp is that after you set up the baseline profile, you are able to tweak it. For example, the Kemper has a Gain knob. If you crank the gain knob, the amp reacts real time and changes the profile as if you were cranking the gain up on the original amp. You don't have to profile an amp multiple times with different gain settings. There is another control for pick attack - not sure what that is related to on an actual amp though.
I played around with a B15 profile but found that the baseline profile sounded right for what I was doing. I also found a Bassman profile that was pretty nice.
I think one of the things that's going on out in "Kemperland" is that players are profiling some of the rare amps in their collections and making them available for download.

That's very useful to know, how long do you think I should wait before
selling my vintage amp collection and all my studios analogue equipment and moving into much smaller premises?.
Is there a kemper app yet for my Ipad?.