Left side of band can't hear bass

[butchblack]

Hi all

My band usually sets up with me on the right, the drummer and the Harmonica player/frontman in the center, and the guitarist and keyboard player on the left. The left side has been complaining that they can't hear me. My volume to the audience seems to be OK. I just sent an email to the band with a couple of suggested cures.(see below) Any further suggestions of feedback on my suggestions welcome.

Mods, if this belongs in live sound, feel free to move it.

My email to my band:

I've been thinking about the problem of you guys on the left not hearing my bass. Given the way we set up and they way a lot of the rooms are I've come up with 3 possible solutions, all with plusses and minuses. From what I could tell my volume was ok in the mix to the audience, so my turning up louder is not in the suggestions.

1. Use a second cab placed on the left side. Plusses, I have the eqpt and it raises my wattage from 350 to 500 (more headroom). Minuses, you get half my volume so it may be too loud. Also some possibility of phase cancellation from the 2 well separated speakers. Possibly running into a small mixer could resolve the volume issue.

2. Going into the PA . Plusses, it's there already. Minuses it takes up a channel on the PA, May affect vocals, for it to be effective you need a monitor facing you. This might be a better option when we use the large PA where there are more available channels.

3. Running a small powered monitor on the left side off my DI. Plusses, It gives you volume control. It allows me to use 2 cabs in bigger rooms. Minuses, Would need to buy one, may have trouble with LF response or enough volume.

I'm going to pose the question on TalkBass also to see what others have done. Any feedback or other suggestions welcome

[jaywa]

Unless your mains can't handle it, you should be going into the P.A. anyway. All the time. If there's an extra channel on your board, claim it!

Just the backwash from the mains may give the other side of the stage enough low end to suit them. If not, feed just a tiny bit thru their monitor(s) and that should be plenty.

Option #1 has been used effectively by some bands but in your situation seems like overkill and way more work (lugging an extra bass cab) than it's worth.

[Phalex]

Originally Posted by jaywa

Unless your mains can't handle it, you should be going into the P.A. anyway. All the time. If there's an extra channel on your board, claim it!

/ thread.

That was fast!

[Kael]

Sidefill and let the PA handle the front of house.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by butchblack

1. Use a second cab placed on the left side.

-1. Never split your cabs. Never place them side by side either (or drivers, for that matter). Why is explained here:
http://homepage.mac.com/randyhyde/we...udioStuff.html

If you need wider coverage put one cab on the floor aimed across the stage, the second cab above it aimed at you.

2. Going into the PA .

+1. You should be there anyway, high-passed to avoid power alley effects. All the other guys are missing is mids and highs anyway, so that's all you need to give them.

[T-MOST]

Maybe turn your cab towards the left.

[ishouldbeking]

I guess it depends what kind of gigs you're playing, and whether it's a house PA or something portable. Personally I much prefer to play through a PA and use my rig more for onstage monitoring. Not to say we play quietly, but I wouldn't want to depend purely on my rig to fill an entire venue with balanced, even output.

You might consider something like a fEarful/nEarful 15/6/1 type cabinets. One of the main advantages that folks describe is really good dispersion. Not sure if it'd make a big enough difference for the guys on the other side of the stage, but who knows, it might.

Something else to try... you could push your rig further back on the stage. I'm usually relegated to the left edge as well, but I tend to put my cab further back, closer to the drummer. It's probably not necessary, but in the event that his monitors suck, the chances of he and the rest of my bandmates hearing me are somewhat better.

[Alex1984]

If your PA is properly set-up, I'd go for it. If you guys don't have a proper sub and crossover, I would personally shy away from that. Basses can typically output frequencies more than an octave below what some FOH cabs are spec'd for.

Also, you could perhaps setup closer to the drummer.

[georgestrings]

Originally Posted by Kael

Sidefill and let the PA handle the front of house.

Depends on the gig - if they're playing bars with tops on sticks for PA, then running bass thru them isn't an option...

We really need more info to give a solid answer:

Your rig?
Your ban's PA?
Size of typical venue?

Those 3 questions being answered would help a great deal... All that being said, I never get complaints similar to the OP's:

[armybass]

I am very fortunate to be in a band with a drummer who plays bass, collects bass gear and provides two rigs for me at rehearsal and gigs. He runs the main Hartke 810 right next to him and then has a cool little rig made up of an SWR Baby Blue head and 2 Bag end 110 cabs that sits between the guitar player and organ player. They split my signal with a pedal preamp and they all seem happy. I would neve go through that much stuff for a gig but I am certainly happy to let someone else. I am a 210 combo guy at best...

[BurningSkies]

What Are you currently using for speakers? I would think you're in full range 15's or something similar? When I ran a traditional rig I'd turn one of my cabs so it would fire slightly across stage.

[Ric5]

Originally Posted by butchblack

1. Use a second cab placed on the left side. Plusses, I have the eqpt and it raises my wattage from 350 to 500 (more headroom). Minuses, you get half my volume so it may be too loud. Also some possibility of phase cancellation from the 2 well separated speakers. Possibly running into a small mixer could resolve the volume issue.

2. Going into the PA . Plusses, it's there already. Minuses it takes up a channel on the PA, May affect vocals, for it to be effective you need a monitor facing you. This might be a better option when we use the large PA where there are more available channels.

1 - This is a good idea ... Although some "expert" may say you get comb filtering or something. I have been playing through 2 cabs for years. Either 2 x 10 or 1 x 15 cabs that are 8 ohms. So 2 cabs = 4 ohms.

2 - PA support is usually a good idea. Bass in the monitors may not be if your monitors are small.

A couple more ideas.

Send everything into the PA and set all the amps to sidewash the stage.

In-ear monitors. Then everybody hears everything.

Also your idea of the powered monitor will work but those things may not yield good bass tone.

Or just turn up.

[98dvl]

Where (front to back) is your gear placed on the stage relative to everyone else?

Shouldn't they be able to hear things a bit better if you push your gear back a bit?

[Ric5]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

-1. Never split your cabs. Never place them side by side either (or drivers, for that matter). Why is explained here:
http://homepage.mac.com/randyhyde/we...udioStuff.html

If you need wider coverage put one cab on the floor aimed across the stage, the second cab above it aimed at you.
+1. You should be there anyway, high-passed to avoid power alley effects. All the other guys are missing is mids and highs anyway, so that's all you need to give them.

Whenever I hear that argument it just doesn't seem right.

Why would it comb filter horizontally and not vertically?

Sound travels in 3 dimensions. So putting 2 cabs next to each other whether vertical or horizontal will have the same effect.

Also most bands have 2 mains ... one to the left and one to the right ... won't that comb filter and ruin the sound?

[rpsands]

Job for a mid driver or a cab with superior coverage pattern (horn loaded can get the job done, but vertical 2x10s stacked can do a good job, as can vert 2x12s.

[98dvl]

Most PA speakers mains are split across the stage as well...

I've never understood why it should be such a big deal to split them either. You're going to have filtering somewhere, somehow no matter what you do. Combine the effects of all the speakers on stage and the PA mains, and you've got a big comb filtered mess of a room. There's never going to be a perfect situation. I understand you can do things to make the situation better... but how much "better" is really "better"?

It all makes sense from a theoretical standpoint, but not from a practical standpoint. I think some people spend too much time trying to get to that theoretical perfect situation, rather than making good music. (No one in your audience is going to notice anyway).

I'd like to see a model (like those fancy colored pictures shown above) of a true stage set up (stage amps, monitors, PA mains, etc). I bet it's nothing but a huge mess. And like the poster above, once you start dealing with 3D effects, it gets even worse.

It's all like chasing flea farts in a wind storm to me.

Originally Posted by Ric5

Whenever I hear that argument it just doesn't seem right.

Why would it comb filter horizontally and not vertically?

Sound travels in 3 dimensions. So putting 2 cabs next to each other whether vertical or horizontal will have the same effect.

Also most bands have 2 mains ... one to the left and one to the right ... won't that comb filter and ruin the sound?
__________________

[Phantasm]

If they need to hear you, they may want IEMs or standard wedges.

Otherwise, they'll need to adapt.

[jaywa]

At least they're concerned about hearing you.

Lots of guitarists and keyboard players couldn't care less.

[onosson]

My two solutions would be:

1. Reposition either the keyboard or guitar to be at your right, so you're in the middle beside the drums. They should both be able to hear you better that way.

2. Tell them both to turn down.

Actually, both of those together would probably solve a lot of problems. I run into this a lot, where a guitar player (usually) will be drowning out the band and complaining he can't hear the rest of us! I always keep my volume where it should be (i.e. where I already have it) and he usually eventually comes around to the stage dynamic.

[SaucyJackBass]

I can't believe no one mentioned option #4

#4 - Get you guitarist and keyboardist going 90% through monitors and mains so they can actually turn down to a normal volume. At that point, unless your durmmer is Cookie Monster, they will hear you just fine.