Listening distance to dial in tone

socialleper · #1 07-10-2010, 11:01 AM

I'm one of these guys that is eternally messing with his settings to find that elusive "perfect tone" that probably only exists in my head. In my quest for tone, I've noticed that where a person is standing relative to your amp makes a huge difference, as does the angle. Since it seems impossible to achieve the same tone at all distances and angles, I'm wondering if some of you gigging warriors have a set rule about this. Is there a particular distance you will stand away from your speakers to dial in your tone?

gillento · #2 07-10-2010, 11:16 AM

I try to dial in my tone so it sounds good on the spot I am using during the show.
This might bring along that I have to move a few times back and forth from that spot to the amp and back, during soundcheck.
Another thing I do, is keeping the sound a touch brighter in the hi mids (or less low end) than I would do playing solo. This makes me hearing my playing better in a full band mix.

jastacey · #3 07-10-2010, 11:23 AM

I use a wireless set-up, I found that, what you hear next to the amp, sounds somewhat different when you get out 20-30 feet from the stage, I also use the wireless to dial in the overall sound of the band P.A. ... with that said, I usually adjust my sound/tone from the 20-30 feet distance, as this is what most people will hear ... it's interesting to hear how the tone changes somewhat as you walk back towards the stage

Jeff Scott · #4 07-10-2010, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jastacey

... it's interesting to hear how the tone changes somewhat as you walk back towards the stage

Somewhat?

That is the understatement of the day, possibly the year!

eyecandy · #5 07-10-2010, 11:38 AM

yeah come to think of it... I sometimes walk away from the amp then go back to dial EQ...

up close the bass sounds muddy but as you walk back, it becomes clearer.. but then the room dictates your tone..

johnk_10 · #6 07-10-2010, 11:43 AM

IMO, what makes it even more difficult is adjusting it to a room at soundcheck when the room is empty. since to me, once all of the bodies are in there, often the acoustics can change pretty drastically.

jastacey · #7 07-10-2010, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnk_10

IMO, what makes it even more difficult is adjusting it to a room at soundcheck when the room is empty. since to me, once all of the bodies are in there, often the acoustics can change pretty drastically.

+1 to that

JimmyM · #8 07-10-2010, 01:21 PM

a lot of these problems can be alleviated to a large extent by using a tall stack or tilting your small cab toward your head. the reason it sounds so different to some people isn't really a function of distance. it's a function of the highs and upper mids blowing past their ears. tilting or using a taller stack puts the highs and upper mids more in line with your ears.

however, room acoustics do play into it and have to be considered, so at soundcheck i will often walk the room playing a song with the band. if that's not possible, tilting your cab or using a tall stack is the next best thing.

Foz · #9 07-10-2010, 05:12 PM

Quote:

...once all of the bodies are in there, often the acoustics can change pretty drastically.

Here's a bit of physics for those interested in the how come on this fact. Look at how the attached and notice how much the sound absorption of a room changes across the freqeuncy band as you put more people into it.

socialleper · #10 07-10-2010, 07:40 PM

It seems to me that the deep lows trail off as I move further away from my cab. They change from being something tangible to something that just rattles things on the walls.

I've also noticed that volume changes everything too. At higher volumes the speakers respond to the frequencies differently because they have to move more air, which in turn gives them less time to get back to "normal". All of these variables are why I never seem to be happy with my tone. If I stand here, it's good, not not if I stand further away; or a sound that's good for a small practice space is completely wrong when you have to turn up for a larger club space. It's all such a pain in the backside.

Then when you try to record...forget about it...everything is totally wrong and you have to start from scratch.

For all the books out there about playing and technique, I don't think I've every come across one about actual sound and how to manipulate it for different settings.

peterpalmieri · #11 07-10-2010, 07:59 PM

I stand where I am going to stand during the gig and never wonder from there.

In general I prefer to be within 5-6 feet of my amp at the furthest.

TimmyP · #12 07-10-2010, 08:50 PM

You need to walk the room and play scales so you can find out what note(s) is (are) hot, and in how much of the room they are hot. Quite often there will be a note that's so hot it ruins the entire mix. (Unfortunately, most bass rigs don't have the EQ necessary to deal with this problem.)

Jazzdogg · #13 07-10-2010, 09:04 PM

Perception of bass frequencies changes according to the proximity of the listener to the bass cab (and subwoofers) relative to the reflective surfaces in the listening environment. When I walk around a venue while playing, I'm reminded of Goldilocks and the Three Bears: some areas are bass deficient, some areas are so boomy I can't identify the notes being played, and some areas are just right. I try to mind the noise floor while achieving "my sound" on stage, and let the sound man worry about FOH.

For an explanation of why perception of frequency balance changes with volume, google Fletcher/Munson Equal Loudness Contours.

TimmyP · #14 07-10-2010, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jazzdogg

Perception of bass frequencies changes according to the proximity of the listener to the bass cab (and subwoofers) relative to the reflective surfaces in the listening environment. When I walk around a venue while playing, I'm reminded of Goldilocks and the Three Bears: some areas are bass deficient, some areas are so boomy I can't identify the notes being played, and some areas are just right. I try to mind the noise floor while achieving "my sound" on stage, and let the sound man worry about FOH.

For an explanation of why perception of frequency balance changes with volume, google Fletcher/Munson Equal Loudness Contours.

But often that big boom occurs even if the soundman turns you off in the PA. You need to fix it on stage. If not, the only way your boom does not ruin the mix is if the soundman mixes everything loud enough that your boom fits in - which will likely be loud enough to run folks out of the room or get you fired.

Jazzdogg · #15 07-10-2010, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimmyP

But often that big boom occurs even if the soundman turns you off in the PA. You need to fix it on stage. If not, the only way your boom does not ruin the mix is if the soundman mixes everything loud enough that your boom fits in - which will likely be loud enough to run folks out of the room or get you fired.

If I collaborate with the soundman and pay attention to the noise floor on stage, I usually don't have problems. Yeah, there are some clubs that are especially heinous for bassists; that's when it pays to have a small cab at ear level, roll off the LF, and keep my volume down. Some clubs are a giant PITA for bassists, no matter what we do.

vinxbass · #16 07-10-2010, 09:44 PM

Over many years of playing I've been able to get a decent tone from all angles just by listening to my bass directly in front of my amp. Ideally, I'd like to hear my bass tone close up the same distance as I hear it up close, but that's not possible.

steve_rolfeca · #17 07-10-2010, 10:16 PM

When I first started playing out, I was surprised to discover that the sort of tone I liked on records and in the music store, didn't work on the gig. I also quickly noticed how the tones of a lot of other bassists sounded really good solo'd during sound check, but turned to mush once the band kicked in.

Back in those days, I used to carry a long cord, and "walk the hall" for a minute or so during the first set, to make sure that my tone was dialed in for the room.

Years later, I'm so used to how it should sound on stage in order to sound good out in the hall, that I don't need to take a walk. It's pretty much the same everywhere, with minor adjustments- I set the low end a little leaner and the top a little brighter than I personally like, and then push the mids a bit around 400Hz, as required for clarity.

Instead of insisting on a tone I like, I've taught myself to like the tone I need.

I think it's disrespectful to the sound guy and the audience alike, to insist on a stage sound that turns muddy and indistinct as it "blooms" out in the hall. I'm not playing for myself, I'm playing for my customers.

Nalte · #18 07-10-2010, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimmyP

Quite often there will be a note that's so hot it ruins the entire mix. (Unfortunately, most bass rigs don't have the EQ necessary to deal with this problem.)

That's depressing.

will33 · #19 07-11-2010, 12:11 AM

There are two configurations and/or schools of thought here.

1. Your entire band is run through a PA and thus what the audience hears should be that PA. Your personal rigs become a glorified stage monitor for yourself and the rest of your band. In this case you set the eq controls wherever you need to to sound good to yourself and so the rest of the band can hear you and keep together/play tight. Sometimes this means you face your rig across the stage sideways, or at least at an angle so all of you (especially your drummer) can hear you well. You also keep your volume low enough so as not to interfere with the FOH PA sound.

2. Your rig is what the audience is hearing, everbody's not run through the PA, there are no subs or if there are, it's only kick drum etc. In this case you check your sound on the dance floor or front and center audience if there isn't a dance floor. You also check your sound towards the back of the room. The back of these rooms can sometimes get a lot of annoying lowish frequency rumble/boom that doesn't add anything to the mix closer in but makes it bad night for the folks further back. Whatever sounds good in those 2 places, you leave it there, get up on stage, get used to whatever that sounds like up close and deal with it knowing you're coming off better to the audience even if it doesn't sound that great to you personally. In this case, you and everybody else should point their amps towards the center of the audience or maybe a chosen point centered left to right but closer in if it's a wide but not all that deep audience. (X-pattern.)

IME of course.

redefine dave · #20 07-11-2010, 05:07 PM

I run a 4x10 and a 1x15... The 15's sound doesn't really hit until it's traveled 10-15 feet from the cab. So somewhere in that range is where the sound is the sweetest to me.
I also understand that the only people that will be hearing my cab are within 20-30 feet from my rig... The rest of the people are going to be hearing mainly the PA and thats the sound guys job...