Looking for some insight on my rig!

[richspillberg]

Hello! I'm currently altering my rig a bit and would like some insight! As of right now my rig consists of:

Head-Mesa 400+ Bass-1973 Gibson Les Paul Studio Cabs-Two Ernie Ball HD-410 8 ohm cabs and a Mesa Boogie Powerhouse 1200 4 ohm cab.

Here's the thing..I haven't had much experience with adding 15s and 18s in my rig and I'm interested in doing so as I'm not happy with my low end right now. The setup that I'm looking at right now is...

Head-Mesa 400+ Bass-Gibson Les Paul Studio 1973 Cabs-Two Ernie Ball HD-410's 8 ohms, Road 2x15 8 ohms and a Bag End 1x18 8 ohms.

I'm wondering if It would be better to add another 4x10 and then add a 2x15 or 1x18 or stick to the original plan and go with two 4x10s a 2x15 and a 1x18. I was just offered an Epifani PS-410 for my Mesa.

So.....
Two 4x10s, 2x15, 1x18 or Three 4x10s and 2x15 or 1x18.

Here are two of my ideal bass sounds...

YouTube - ‪T.Rex - Dandy In The Underworld‬‏

YouTube - ‪The Beatles - Oh! Darling‬‏

[lazyone2]

Are you playing stadiums?

[richspillberg]

Originally Posted by lazyone2

Are you playing stadiums?

Hopefully at some point

[richspillberg]

Anyone? *Crickets*

[richspillberg]

bump

[esa372]

The wiser members of TB will say that it is best not to mix driver sizes. If you want to add a cab to a rig that is all 10s, the new cab should be 10s as well - and preferably, it should be an identical cab from the same manufacturer.

The driver sizes alone will not provide you with any tonal properties. For example, it is not necessarily true that a 15 or an 18 will give you more low end than a 410 or a 212. You need to look into the specs of the cab itself to determine that.

If you're having trouble getting a satisfactory low end from two 410 cabs, I would suggest trying different EQ settings. A pair of 410s should handle lows quite easily.

[Morning Beer]

I think you would be better off getting a roadie.

[Bass_Pounder]

Originally Posted by richspillberg

Hello! I'm currently altering my rig a bit and would like some insight! As of right now my rig consists of:

Head-Mesa 400+ Bass-1973 Gibson Les Paul Studio Cabs-Two Ernie Ball HD-410 8 ohm cabs and a Mesa Boogie Powerhouse 1200 4 ohm cab.

Originally Posted by esa372

The wiser members of TB will say that it is best not to mix driver sizes. If you want to add a cab to a rig that is all 10s, the new cab should be 10s as well - and preferably, it should be an identical cab from the same manufacturer.

The driver sizes alone will not provide you with any tonal properties. For example, it is not necessarily true that a 15 or an 18 will give you more low end than a 410 or a 212. You need to look into the specs of the cab itself to determine that.

If you're having trouble getting a satisfactory low end from two 410 cabs, I would suggest trying different EQ settings. A pair of 410s should handle lows quite easily.

As already said...............mixing driver sizes is a crapshoot.

Since you are already mixing sizes and brands, have you tried eliminating the Mesa out of the equation to see if your two 4X10's have a better bass response then with the Mesa added ?

If your 4X10's sound good alone, or the Mesa works well on it's own, then you have first hand experience on the "why" you should not mix.

[will33]

Originally Posted by esa372

The wiser members of TB will say that it is best not to mix driver sizes. If you want to add a cab to a rig that is all 10s, the new cab should be 10s as well - and preferably, it should be an identical cab from the same manufacturer.

The driver sizes alone will not provide you with any tonal properties. For example, it is not necessarily true that a 15 or an 18 will give you more low end than a 410 or a 212. You need to look into the specs of the cab itself to determine that.

If you're having trouble getting a satisfactory low end from two 410 cabs, I would suggest trying different EQ settings. A pair of 410s should handle lows quite easily.

+1

You've got so much mix and match stuff whatever lowend you have is likely suffering from phase cancellations now. Different rooms will have a huge effect on it as well. Adding more stuff will likely just make a slightly bigger wall of mud. Could pick your most bass shy cab and add a lowpassed sub to it. Or just pick the cab that sounds best to you by itself, not loud enough, get another one just like it. Read up on the basics of how sound works before just blindly chaining along more stuff.

[richspillberg]

Alright thanks for the help...Would it be less of a risk to go with the 3 4x10's and then add one of either the 2x15 or 1x18?

I'm not too good with understanding the specs

Bag End

Model S18B-D
Impedance 8 Ohms
Continuous Sine Wave Power Handling 300 W
Peak Music Program Power Handling 600 W
Sensitivity 1 Watt/1 Meter 101 dB SPL
Frequency Response 36-2kHz

Epifani PS 410
IMPEDANCE
8 or 4 Ohms
POWER RATING
800 WRMS
1200 Watt Peak
SPECS
Response 36Hz - 16kHz
Sensitivity 102dB (1W@1m)
HARDWARE
2 x Speakon and 1/4" Output Connectors
Lite Ply Poplar Plywood
Dado Joint Construction
Road-Ready Carpet Covering
High-Impact Locking Corners
Steel Recessed Handles
18 Gauge Steel Grill
DIMENSIONS
28.5"h x 23"w x 18.5"d
78 lbs

[esa372]

Originally Posted by Bass_Pounder

...have you tried eliminating the Mesa out of the equation to see if your two 4X10's have a better bass response then with the Mesa added ?

Good tip; something the OP should certainly try.

Originally Posted by richspillberg

Would it be less of a risk to go with the 3 4x10's and then add one of either the 2x15 or 1x18?

Twelve 10s will likely put out far more sound than a 215 or 118; the 15s and 18 would have a hard time keeping up, and you may not even hear them at all. Combine that issue with the high probability of phase and dispersion problems inherent in mixing driver sizes, and I would say just go for four 410 cabs.

Here's a chart comparing cone area of different driver sizes. (I don't remember where I got this, but it was through TB.) All other things being equal, cabs with greater cone area will be louder:


You can see in the chart that a 410 cab would have 314" of cone area, so three 410 cabs would have 942". Compare that with the 215 (353") and the 118 (254") and you can see that the 10s would absolutely bury the two 15s or one 18, in terms of volume output.

So, once again, if you're thinking of three 410 cabs, and you want to add another cab, a fourth 410 would be the best choice.


I'm not sure waht your question is regarding the specs you've posted...

[Bass_Pounder]

Originally Posted by richspillberg

Alright thanks for the help...Would it be less of a risk to go with the 3 4x10's and then add one of either the 2x15 or 1x18?

I would say neither to the 2X15 or the 1X18

Here is why:

Speakers make sound by moving air (displacement).

When thinking in terms of "common commercially available cabs", a 1X15 is more equal to a 2X10 in displacement. To keep up with a single 4X10, you would want to use a 2X15.

Using THREE 4X10's, and trying to get a 2X15 (let alone a SINGLE 18") to keep up will be near impossible. Whatever sound is coming out of either the 2X15 or the 1X18 will completely drowned out by the 12X10's anyway.

[acubass]

I would go the dual 810 route. Still big and impressive as well as being sonically pleasing.

[richspillberg]

Alright I'm convinced. Appreciate you guys explaining the reasoning to me. The chart really helped, sometimes seeing the numbers visually really helps! I'm gonna go with the four 4x10s. Like I said, I've been offered the Epifani PS-410 and as far as I can tell it seems pretty similar to the Ernie Ball HD-410. I suppose I'll pick up two of the PS-410s considering the Ernie Balls are really hard to find and I guess I'd rather have two of both. One last thing...Can anyone confirm that these two cabs would be a decent match?

[Thor]

If you are not happy with your bass tone, look at your bass first.

What is it, how do you set it up. Pickups? Active or passive?

Strings? What type?

If you swap basses with someone else, do you find a more pleasing tone?

Now off to EQ. How do you set your eq settings?

Read here for EQ info.
EQ bassics thread


I agree, adding a 4th cab with a 15 or 18 leads to mismatched power loads, a 4x10 on on side and one big cone on the other as well as phase cancellation.

Take your 4x10 cab and EQ the bass the way you like it.
Then plug in all the rest of the stuff. If you don't like the tone anymore and feel you have lost something, then you have phase cancellation at work.

If you took physics in high school, remember the difference between the one point and 2 point sources. Same principle.

[esa372]

^^^
Good advice from Thor...

Originally Posted by richspillberg

Can anyone confirm that these two cabs would be a decent match?

I personally have no experience with the HD-410 (and I can't find any specs on it), so I can not comment on how it will match up with the Epifani.

But, this is why having identical cabs from a single manufacturer is the best bet - it eliminates the guesswork, and guarantees a match.

[staindbass]

hi. about the above table- yes you may have the same cone area, but it will not sound the same. most times the larger the speaker is the lower in frequency it will go. less true with home stereo speakers, but we are talking about commonly available bass amp speakers. an svt dies off quickly below 80hz. dont expect movie soundtrack sub bass room shaking domination. i assume thats what you want, or to have the capability if you need it. the 4 stringers may whine, but some of us search for the sub bass that you feel and not hear. im not concerned with how it reacts with the pa, or that that the sound is better onstage and the pa cant reproduce it anyways. its for me to hear and enjoy onstage in my bass world exactly what i want to. i think what you might be looking for would be one 4x10 w/tweeter, and two 15" or 18". (all sealed enclosures). a 2x15 will put the 4x10 at ear level, cross it over @ 300hz. that should make all the mids you will ever need, and it will be clear cuz the 10's aint thumpin in the bass region. if your gonna use 15" i would get something like jbl or ev. i have a feeling the currently used stock drivers in todays cabs are not on the same level of quality as far as reproduction. your clip "oh darling" makes me think 15's would better suit you. lots of energy in the 60-150 hz region. 18's are better when trying to feel it more than hear it. i play with a guitarist who tunes down to A flat, (so do i) so i need lots of sound there. if i missed anything send me a pm, i lose track of the threads. johnny a staind

[staindbass]

95 % of the advice people gave i thought was right on target. before you switch to four 4x10 cabs, please try one of them against a good quality single 18 and see what is what. or call your local rental sound company and rent a 2x18 for a day and test its low end against two of your 4x10 lol. it will be money well spent, and you wont be wondering in the future if you become not as thrilled as you thought you would be with your 4- 4x10's.

[BassmanPaul]

If you need more lows adding a 15 or an 18 is not the way to do it. Typically these cabs will go no lower than a good 4x10. They certainly will not be able to keep up with the efficiency or power handling of a 4x10

My immediate question is how do you intend connecting all of this stuff to a tube amp. You really need to match cabinet impedances to the OPT tap selected.

I think maybe you should try a different 4x10 before you go out and spend money willy nilly.

[RickenBoogie]

+1 to that^