Lots of ?s you're sick of hearing...but wait!

[Kabal]

Okay its possible (just maybe) these questions have been answered a hundred times but the FAQ thread didn't have the info I was looking for.

Amps and cabs confuse me......*phew* that wasn't so bad

One thing that confuses me is the term "pushing air" I understand it's kinda literal, if you stand in front of a large blaring cab you get your hair blown back. What I don't get is...why is it important? Or is it? Is "pushing air" just a cool bass player term for saying "it can get louder" or is there more to it?

I aspire to get a rig that can be broken down into more manageable pieces. I'm imagining 3 12s with a tube amp.
Does anyone have experience with a set up like this? What kind of setting (bar, club, etc.) do you/can you play with it?

What am I losing with three individual speakers that a single unit would have?

Assuming my first question was answered "Yes it's important," will 3 12's significantly close the gap of air pushed to an 810 or even 410?

When choosing a brand of cabs are the sensitivity and frequency response ratings what matter most when it comes to sound quality?

There were some posts in the Dingwall Club thread about how a Genz (600 I think?) head has a filter that cuts out a Dingwall's low lows. Now if Genz is supposed to be an amp in the upper echelon of amps is this typically a problem with all solid states?

And would a tube amp capture aforementioned frequencies?

Is there a number on amps that tells me what frequencies they can capture sort of like on a cab?

Am I just worrying about superfluous things and wasting my time when what I should be doing is practicing?

If you made it to the end of this thread I thank you for putting up with me and any help you can offer. Here's an emoticon....

[funkybassinator]

Umm... probably being asked what question i'm most sick of hearing.

[BassBob1]

well, i certainly can not answer all of your questions but i will take a stab at a few.

first i don't know how you would get 3 single 12 cabs to work. I have only seen 12's in 4 or 8 ohm configurations. Also 3 single 12's seems less manageable than a 410 cab to me. Anyway. 3 12's would not sound like a 410 or and 810. ten inch speakers have a different sound than 12's. I know that a 212 cab has a little less volume than my 410. the overall cab design has an effect on that too. if you like the sound of 12's you may want to try out some 212 cabs. hope that helps some.

[Emm9T]

Isn't pushing air just a euphemism for how loud something is? Sure noise does push air, but nobody's going to measure that...

ex. "My Megoliath pushes more air than your Fender Rumble bwahahahar"

[BurningSkies]

Speakers with more excursion, push more air...thus a 3015LF really pushes a ton of air.

[s_mcsleazy]

well i have a way to mesure the "pushing air" thing

when im looking to buy a amp i show up in bell bottoms, stand 3ft away from said amp and see how much the bells ring

[PunkSweeper]

Originally Posted by BassBob1

ten inch speakers have a different sound than 12's.

How is this still happening...

[BurningSkies]

Originally Posted by PunkSweeper

How is this still happening...

Someone's paying more attention to old wives tales than to science.

[Ric5]

Originally Posted by Kabal

Okay its possible (just maybe) these questions have been answered a hundred times but the FAQ thread didn't have the info I was looking for.

Amps and cabs confuse me......*phew* that wasn't so bad

One thing that confuses me is the term "pushing air" I understand it's kinda literal, if you stand in front of a large blaring cab you get your hair blown back. What I don't get is...why is it important? Or is it? Is "pushing air" just a cool bass player term for saying "it can get louder" or is there more to it?

I aspire to get a rig that can be broken down into more manageable pieces. I'm imagining 3 12s with a tube amp.
Does anyone have experience with a set up like this? What kind of setting (bar, club, etc.) do you/can you play with it?

What am I losing with three individual speakers that a single unit would have?

Assuming my first question was answered "Yes it's important," will 3 12's significantly close the gap of air pushed to an 810 or even 410?

When choosing a brand of cabs are the sensitivity and frequency response ratings what matter most when it comes to sound quality?

There were some posts in the Dingwall Club thread about how a Genz (600 I think?) head has a filter that cuts out a Dingwall's low lows. Now if Genz is supposed to be an amp in the upper echelon of amps is this typically a problem with all solid states?

And would a tube amp capture aforementioned frequencies?

Is there a number on amps that tells me what frequencies they can capture sort of like on a cab?

Am I just worrying about superfluous things and wasting my time when what I should be doing is practicing?

If you made it to the end of this thread I thank you for putting up with me and any help you can offer. Here's an emoticon....

If you are tired of certain threads then ignore them. Nobody is forcing you to read them. There are always a bunch of new members who want to know. And don't tell them to use the cumbersome search engine. Just let them post.

[lukelogandennis]

Originally Posted by Ric5

If you are tired of certain threads then ignore them. Nobody is forcing you to read them. There are always a bunch of new members who want to know. And don't tell them to use the cumbersome search engine. Just let them post.

Dude, I'm pretty sure he is the one asking the questions, not complaining about other people.

[Kabal]

Ok before my thread gets hijacked let me interject...

Bassbob first i don't know how you would get 3 single 12 cabs to work. I have only seen 12's in 4 or 8 ohm configurations. Also 3 single 12's seems less manageable than a 410 cab to me. Anyway. 3 12's would not sound like a 410 or and 810

So what you're saying is I need 4??? And by manageable I mean weight-wise. I'd rather make 2-3 trips to the car than pull something in my back lifting my Peavey combo. I'm also not going for sound similarities I just meant loudness in general.

Ric5
If you are tired of certain threads then ignore them. Nobody is forcing you to read them. There are always a bunch of new members who want to know. And don't tell them to use the cumbersome search engine. Just let them post.

Dude relax. I'm not taking shots at anyone sorry you interpreted it that way

[Kabal]

bumpij

[Munjibunga]

While wearing pants (not emo skinny pants), stand in front of your cab. Plug your bass into your amp. Turn your amp on. Crank it up. Play your bass. If you feel your pants flapping in the wind, your amp is pushing air.

[wshines1892]

Get a couple of two tens if you want a rig you can break down. If the thinking is that you may need to use one 12, I can guarantee that you'll never run into a situation where two 10s are overkill. And then if you need to match the "air" that a 410 pushes, you can just stick the other one on top.

As for what amps capture what frequencies, to my understanding all amps capture all frequencies? The amp has a certain character or signature frequencies it will bring out, but you can bring out the frequencies you want with any good eq section.

I'm sure I'll be raked over the coals for saying this, but a solid state amp captures just as many frequencies as a tube amp does, they just color the sound differently. Even now, there are solid state amps that attempt to emulate the color that tubes give, and they sound pretty darn close in my opinion. Go out, try out some different amp heads, and pick which one gives you a sound that you like.

Your "loudness" will only be useful if it's applicable. Take a second to stop and think about what application you will be using your gear. If you're playing gigs with tons of PA and an able sound man, you may not even need an amp. If you're using your amp as a personal stage monitor, a 210 and an amp stand will serve with a capable head. If you are playing decent sized rooms without PA, or at least subs in the PA, you'll need more speaker to supplement the lack of system.

Just so I can give you a definitive answer, I'll use my old standby response. At least 200 watts and either a 115 or a 210.

[TrevorOfDoom]

Originally Posted by Kabal

There were some posts in the Dingwall Club thread about how a Genz (600 I think?) head has a filter that cuts out a Dingwall's low lows. Now if Genz is supposed to be an amp in the upper echelon of amps is this typically a problem with all solid states?

And would a tube amp capture aforementioned frequencies?

this is not a problem, it's a design feature. the human ear can't hear ultra low frequencies past ~20Hz, and most cabs can't reproduce frequencies lower than ~30Hz, so Genz builds in a lowpass filter to kill such frequencies.
Frequencies that low require a lot of power to make audible, which is pointless. Said filter helps the amp save energy and focuses the low frequencies that we can hear.

I'm sure there are amps out there that will reproduce those frequencies, but they're likely 1000+ watts; and to find cabs to reproduce those frequencies is a headache all its own.

[GrowlerBox]

Originally Posted by Kabal

Okay its possible (just maybe) these questions have been answered a hundred times but the FAQ thread didn't have the info I was looking for.

Amps and cabs confuse me......*phew* that wasn't so bad

One thing that confuses me is the term "pushing air" I understand it's kinda literal, if you stand in front of a large blaring cab you get your hair blown back. What I don't get is...why is it important? Or is it? Is "pushing air" just a cool bass player term for saying "it can get louder" or is there more to it?

I aspire to get a rig that can be broken down into more manageable pieces. I'm imagining 3 12s with a tube amp.
Does anyone have experience with a set up like this? What kind of setting (bar, club, etc.) do you/can you play with it?

What am I losing with three individual speakers that a single unit would have?

Assuming my first question was answered "Yes it's important," will 3 12's significantly close the gap of air pushed to an 810 or even 410?

When choosing a brand of cabs are the sensitivity and frequency response ratings what matter most when it comes to sound quality?

There were some posts in the Dingwall Club thread about how a Genz (600 I think?) head has a filter that cuts out a Dingwall's low lows. Now if Genz is supposed to be an amp in the upper echelon of amps is this typically a problem with all solid states?

And would a tube amp capture aforementioned frequencies?

Is there a number on amps that tells me what frequencies they can capture sort of like on a cab?

Am I just worrying about superfluous things and wasting my time when what I should be doing is practicing?

If you made it to the end of this thread I thank you for putting up with me and any help you can offer. Here's an emoticon....

1. "Pushing air" is essentially about volume. There are various properties of speakers and their housings that are related to their efficiency (the loudness they can produce at a given power input over various frequencies). Excursion is one of the more important (essentially, how far the cone can move back and forth, thus producing the vibration we perceive as sound); total speaker area is also an important factor. It should be noted that speaker diameter is far and away the least important factor (i.e. may be ignored) when considering the tonal range of a particular speaker -- simply put, there is no tone particular to 10s, 12s, 15s, etc.

2. Breaking your rig into manageable parts is not at all a bad idea, as various situations demand different things from your setup. Basic rules of thumb: the impedances of your speaker cabinets when combined cannot go lower than the minimum rating of your amplifier -- these are all measured in Ohms (unit of electrical resistance). Total resistance/impedance (R) = 1/[(1/R1)+(1/R2)+(1/R3)...]. Very simple example: 2 x 8 Ohm cabinets (very standard): R = 1/[(1/8) + (1/8) = 4 Ohms, which is the usual minimum impedance allowed by most commercial amp heads. This does vary somewhat, for example some will allow a 2 Ohm minimum impedance. Offering too low a resistance to your head's output results in excess current, overheating and thus irreparable and unwarrantable damage to your head.
Second rule of thumb: mixing speaker sizes risks introducing unpredictable phasing problems. Basically, this refers to sound waves produced by your speakers cancelling and reinforcing one another at various frequencies and at various points in the field, i.e. where you and your bandmates are standing on stage, and in the wider audience. This can be avoided by adding identical cabinets to comprise your modular rig.
Third rule of thumb: stack cabinets so that speakers are arranged vertically, not side-by-side. This improves the horizontal dispersion of those frequencies which are "directional"; i.e. mid- and high-frequencies are not well transmitted at angles wide of the speaker axis. The dispersion angle is inversely proportional to the diameter of the source of the sound wave, and two speakers close to one another behave as a single speaker for these purposes. Note that this same phenomenon occurs in the vertical plane with properly stacked speakers, but unless your band of your audience is also stacked vertically, this is of little consequence.
In short, you do not lose anything by having multiple smaller units over one larger unit, and gain plenty, assuming they are well-chosen and well-arranged.

3. Unfortunately, the published speaker cabinet specifications of virtually all commercially available units are meaningless in any practical sense. Do not believe frequency ranges, maximum power, SPL ratings etc -- these are all very manipulable, and the circumstances under which various numbers are garnered are not provided. Certain of the smaller designers, several of whom are very active on this site, provide realistic and complete specifications, including the compromises that are always necessary when dealing with physical laws. You simply can't have everything, and you need to know what is important to you when choosing the elements of your rig. You either need to try them yourself (ideal), or trust to the reports provided others, as long as they give reasons for their opinions, and are therefore open to "falsifiablity".

4. The other concerns over high-pass filters, and "captured frequencies" (if I understand this correctly) have been addressed. High-pass filters are useful, and protect your speakers form inaudible but nevertheless potentially destructive low-frequency signals. There is no "number" that represents an amp head's true frequency output -- see cabinet specs above (more or less).

5. You're not necessarily wasting your time with this -- it's fascinating. Practice is ultimately more helpful, though.

6. I see your , and raise you a .

[Stumbo]

What's your budget?

[s_mcsleazy]

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

While wearing pants (not emo skinny pants), stand in front of your cab. Plug your bass into your amp. Turn your amp on. Crank it up. Play your bass. If you feel your pants flapping in the wind, your amp is pushing air.

you copy'd me

read my previous post

[alexclaber]

The sound you hear is the result of air being moved. The lower the frequency, the more air has to be moved for equal loudness. Lots to read here: http://barefacedbass.com/technical-information.htm and here http://barefacedbass.com/bgm-columns.htm

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by Emm9T

Sure noise does push air, but nobody's going to measure that...

I measure it all the time. In the simplest of terms a loudspeaker is a pump, and what it pumps is air. How much air it is capable of pumping is quantified as Maximum SPL. It's just expressed in decibels rather than a cubic volume.