which is louder... more efficient speakers or more speakers?

[webelo]

The Backstory:
My guitar player (also happens to be my brother) was recently told that his "tone was thin" by our other guitar player So, this prompted him to turn up to get drive the tubes more and get the tone he's looking for. This no means that I'm getting lost in the mix. I love the tone I'm getting out of my amp... it's just not loud enough.

I'm playing through a Sovtek Mig 100-B Bassov Blues Boy and Ampeg 4x10 HE. My amp is also cranked to get to the volume I'm at.

I once played through my other guitar player's spare bass cab (an Eden 4x10) and noticed that my Ampeg was quieter. After some research, I've realized that it was because his speakers were more efficient (104dB? as opposed to my Ampeg's 98dB).

So, my question is what is the best route to achieve more volume? Running through a more efficient 4x10 (like an Eden) or getting another 8 ohm 4x10, daisy chaining them, and essentially running an 8x10 on 4 ohms?

Thanks!

[Mr. Foxen]

Sensitivity specs can be a bit made, up, but basic rule is doubling speakers gives you 3db, plus that means you halve impedance, and double power so another 3b, knowing that, you can figure how they compare, if a speaker cab is 3db louder than another, its going to be a bit like doubling up.

[B-string]

If the specs are real then the Eden cab will be notably "louder". Double the same drivers will make a large difference, but I suspect you have out grown your Mig.

[Bass_Pounder]

Originally Posted by webelo

I once played through my other guitar player's spare bass cab (an Eden 4x10) and noticed that my Ampeg was quieter. After some research, I've realized that it was because his speakers were more efficient (104dB? as opposed to my Ampeg's 98dB).

So, my question is what is the best route to achieve more volume? Running through a more efficient 4x10 (like an Eden) or getting another 8 ohm 4x10, daisy chaining them, and essentially running an 8x10 on 4 ohms?

Thanks!

That difference of 6db is pretty substantial (as mentioned above - same difference as doubling your wattage AND doubling your speakers).

Getting another matching 4X10 will get you to where the one Eden 4X10 was.

No simple answer - you have to do what is right for your budget and your ears.

[BassmanPaul]

The mig is what? 100W?? To compete with a guitar player you need five to ten times his power level and the speakers to handle that. Your cabinet is rated at 500W which means it can make use of about 250W. Bottom line is that you need a more powerful amplifier. Look for something in the 500W range.

[Mushroo]

Cheapest way to get more power is buy an inexpensive solid-state power amp (10x the guitarist's wattage is a good rule of thumb), use your tube amp as a preamp (assuming this is possible).

Other advice:

WEAR EARPLUGS!!!
use a compressor
cut your lows and boost your mids
convince the guitarist to cut his lows
buy a second cabinet and/or a more efficient cabinet

[dhomer]

I like to have a good amount of power in reserve (its headroom, not necessarily volume), but that alone ain't the solution. If you add power, you have to make absolutely sure your speakers can make use of it. Unfortunately, a lot of store-bought cabs have serious displacement-limitation issues. You could probably buy a cab w/drivers that have 100dB/watt sensitivity, but if they exceed xmax at 100 watts, it ain't good.... And since mfg's are kinda tight-lipped or outright fraudulent on posting meaningful specs, its a crapshoot.

If you are looking to upgrade, there's an elegant solution.. fEARful...

[Kael]

1. Eden's published specs should be taken with a grain of salt. A very small grain. While the Eden may very well be more efficient than your ampeg, it is most likely not nearly as efficient as the specs you posted.

2. Many Eden cabs have a mid bump. Mids stick out more. It is entirely possible that what you were hearing was the pronounced mids cutting through better. You might try bumping the mids up a touch and NOT turning up the lows. Matter of fact, cut the lows some.

3. 100 watts is crap. Go get yourself 500 watts SS or 200 watts tube minimum to start with. If you need more volume after that, add more speakers. More speakers moving, in general trumps all other issues in the volume arena. Still, you are starting with so little in the power area that that could concievably be a problem. If you move to two cabs, you are definitely going to want more than 100 watts.

4. Tell the guitarist to to turn the ehf down. More volume doesn't fix crappy tone. It just makes louder crappy tone.

[Mushroo]

Your amp is 100 watts and your cab can handle 500w.

The cab is not the "weakest link."

[fuzzy beard]

I would add more speaker if you like your tone! Maybe pick up a 2x15 cab seems to me alot of bass players use to use 100 watt tuck and roll heads on top of 2x15 cabs. And they were plenty loud enough!

Also the fEARful, and bfm designs are a great option!!!

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by webelo

Eden 4x10... were more efficient 104dB

They aren't. Eden is well known for using 'optimistic' specs; 104dB from a 4x10 with the low frequency response they claim is impossible to realize. If there's a difference it's due to the cab tuning, which gives the Eden a response bump in the midbass. That makes it seem subjectively louder, but that loudness is obtained at the expense of low end response. Also, the Eden is ported. If your Ampeg is sealed that also would explain some difference.

Your amp is 100 watts and your cab can handle 500w. The cab is not the "weakest link.

+1.

[BogeyBass]

Originally Posted by webelo

getting another 8 ohm 4x10, daisy chaining them, and essentially running an 8x10 on 4 ohms?

Yes absolutely, add another matching 4x10 cabinet, and you will be happy. I have heard plenty of 100 watt heads into a 8x10 which worked fine with 2 guitars.
Getting another matching Ampeg cabinet and essentially running a 8x10 thats been split in half, will be way cheaper and louder than buying a more expensive Eden 4x10.

a single 10" speaker barely hits 92 to 96db
a single 12" speaker can hit 94 to 98db
a single 15" speaker can hit 98 to 101dB

so why the love for 10's? who knows.....heck if you ran a 4x15 you would not need more than 80 watts.

its just easier these days to dump 300+ watts into small light inefficient speakers...than it is for people to carry around heavy efficient speakers and only need 100.

either way more speakers, will always sound better and need less power.

[RickenBoogie]

2 of the same 4x10's will be a noticeable increase in volume, and a good starting point, but like others have mentioned, you'll most likely want a more powerful amp as well.

[1958Bassman]

Originally Posted by webelo

The Backstory:
My guitar player (also happens to be my brother) was recently told that his "tone was thin" by our other guitar player So, this prompted him to turn up to get drive the tubes more and get the tone he's looking for. This no means that I'm getting lost in the mix. I love the tone I'm getting out of my amp... it's just not loud enough.

Thanks!

The answer to your original question is "it depends". The response curve needs to be checked for where the manufacturer says it's 104dB @1W/1M. If it's 104@1KHz, that's a useless spec for a bass player but for a guitarist, it's great, assuming high SPL is important.

Do you guys need to be loud on stage? Do you not use a PA? If you use a PA for all of the sound, it would be much better for all if you each get a great sound at a lower SPL, then go through the PA for coverage. Your brother needs to work on his sound, not increase the volume and if he can't get great sound at low volume, he should look at different equipment.

Re: 4x10, 4x12, etc, if lighter weight is important, smaller speakers will help. You'll be able to hear yourself better with smaller speakers- partly because the lowest frequencies are shooting past you when you're close to the speakers and because the human ear isn't as sensitive to low frequencies as to mids and, to a lesser extent, highs. That's one reason some bass players use a 2x10 and 1x15 setup. If they're going DI, the 15 is far less important and can actually cause problems with the PA mix (phase cancellations).

[madmatt]

I have a GK RBH115 cab and it is rated at 103dB sensitivity. I can definitely tell the difference over my less sensitive cabs.
Also, you should have at least 4x the power your guitarist has, but that is not all. You have to compete with drums and stuff too. So 4x may not be enough, but it is a good starting point. You can always go through the mains also.

[will33]

Your guitarists volume knob is not his tone knob. He needs to use his eq/tone knobs to thicken up his sound or switch to a little meatier, perhaps warmer sounding guitar speaker. While it's true tubes do like to be pushed a bit to "open up" or "bring the tone" that doesn't equate to "I need to crank it". "Gotta crank it up to get that tone, man" is for people who don't know much about tone. If he cut his power and speaker count both in half he'd be able to turn it up to where it sounded good and still end up at an acceptable volume level.


That being said, your 100watts and lowish spl sealed 410 isn't enough to hang with one good size guitar rig or a pair of 30 watt combo's if you have 2 guitar players.

Yes most speaker specs are a stretch with some of them being pure fantasy. You need either another 410 or a more or a more powerful amp and a louder cab. Higher spl = more sound coming out per watt going in.

Sit down with your brother and goof around with your rigs. Try to find him a thicker tone, THEN make it as loud as needed. Take some bass out of your rig and adjust it as loud as you can, then find a balance between putting as much bass as needed and farting out/having to turn down.

It can be done. My guitar player runs a jcm2000 and a 412, has a nice tone and our stage volume is always well under control. I don't need big bass rigs to compete, i can mic him up even in small venues and we can all sing better because there isn't a bunch of guitar or bass blasting up our collective asses.

In the end you should all be shooting for a good overall mix, not having a volume war.

[Joe Louvar]

Originally Posted by webelo

So, my question is what is the best route to achieve more volume?

You need more power. Use a DI box and plug into the main house PA.

[Derek Kiernan]

Originally Posted by 1958Bassman

Re: 4x10, 4x12, etc, if lighter weight is important, smaller speakers will help. You'll be able to hear yourself better with smaller speakers- partly because the lowest frequencies are shooting past you when you're close to the speakers and because the human ear isn't as sensitive to low frequencies as to mids and, to a lesser extent, highs. That's one reason some bass players use a 2x10 and 1x15 setup. If they're going DI, the 15 is far less important and can actually cause problems with the PA mix (phase cancellations).

Untrue. Content below 200 Hz is effectively omnidirectional, beaming increases as you go up in frequency. You also need much greater displacement for low end, which is the place in which a larger speaker surface area can be very helpful for volume needs (but sacrifices off-axis response).



See if your brother's amp could accept tubes that would drop the wattage output, and turn up his mids, down the bass and treble. I'd probably recommend a higher wattage head, and perhaps looking into the fEARful designs if you're considering another speaker cabinet.

[webelo]

Thanks for all the feedback guys!

My bro is playing through a homemade Marshall 18watt with 2x12 cab (with Celestion Alnico Blues). Apparently he's got quite a bit more left in terms of volume. I don't understand why his rig can be so loud with only 18 watts... but the thing is a monster. Our other guitar player plays through a Fender combo.

I think I'm going to keep my eye open for another 4x10 and run them daisy chained. I think that'll be a cheaper option than picking up an Eden (call me shallow... but I prefer the way the Ampegs look over the Edens). This will also give me the option of running the 8x10 rig at larger venues or the 4x10 at smaller venues.

I agree that I should probably have an amp with more power, but I really love the ton out of this Sovtek. It also seems like every time someone gets rid of one on the forum, they regret it. I have a SS Berhinger amp (300 or 400 watts... I can't remember) that I played through before I got the Sovtek and I swear that it is not louder than my 100 watt tube amp (it also doesn't sound nearly as dynamic and alive as the sovtek tube amp).

[Rick Auricchio]

Originally Posted by webelo

I don't understand why his [guitar] rig can be so loud with only 18 watts...

For one thing, your ears are about ten times more sensitive in the upper mids...which is right where the guitar is.