Low bass frequencies detrimental to note clarity? Out of tune speakers?

[WingKL]

I noticed when the volume is turned up on my Acme Low B2 that I begin to fail to distinguish between the notes I'm playing. Since the Acme is so good at reproducing the fundamental frequencies, are the low frequencies actually affecting note clarity or is it some room interaction thing? It seems as volume goes up, turning down the bass helps with note clarity.

I play at a rehearsal space through a Peavey speaker with an 18 and 2x10 BW drivers. Sometimes it seems some notes are out of tune as if my bass was out of intonation but when I check with a strobe tuner it's actually in tune. Could it be the speakers or some sort of room interaction too?

I'm beginning to think even though it may be cool for a speaker to be able to reproduce fundamental low frequencies, it actually has no real benefit to the actual performance of music.

[Nic.]

Well I've seen on this forum pretty often that you get definition from mids and rumble from lows. It does have a benefit I guess, I feel weird not hearing the lows when I play.

[Craig_S]

Originally Posted by WingKL

I'm beginning to think even though it may be cool for a speaker to be able to reproduce fundamental low frequencies, it actually has no real benefit to the actual performance of music.

I guess that depends on the application. It's probably great if you're using it without P.A. support.

The only "out of tune-ness" I've ever experienced has been from high volume. I could actually step in and out of where it was happening on stage, and hear the pitch bend. Incredible... I think that's caused by a standing wave. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by WingKL

I'm beginning to think even though it may be cool for a speaker to be able to reproduce fundamental low frequencies, it actually has no real benefit to the actual performance of music.

there's actual proof that it's true. you hear those low notes way more from the second harmonic than the fundamental anyway. if you ever see them graphed out, you see a tiny bit of the fundamental and the second harmonic is 3-4x louder. i always used a sealed 810 when i used to use my 5-string regularly. never noticed a thing wrong with the tone and always had nice clarity and definition. some people like it and want it...never did me any good, and if i get it on a supplied rig, i try to dial it out.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by WingKL

I noticed when the volume is turned up on my Acme Low B2 that I begin to fail to distinguish between the notes I'm playing.

Look at an Equal Loudness Chart. When you turn up the lows are more audible. You need to change your EQ to suit the volume you're playing at.

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by WingKL

I noticed when the volume is turned up on my Acme Low B2 that I begin to fail to distinguish between the notes I'm playing. Since the Acme is so good at reproducing the fundamental frequencies, are the low frequencies actually affecting note clarity or is it some room interaction thing? It seems as volume goes up, turning down the bass helps with note clarity.

I play at a rehearsal space through a Peavey speaker with an 18 and 2x10 BW drivers. Sometimes it seems some notes are out of tune as if my bass was out of intonation but when I check with a strobe tuner it's actually in tune. Could it be the speakers or some sort of room interaction too?

I'm beginning to think even though it may be cool for a speaker to be able to reproduce fundamental low frequencies, it actually has no real benefit to the actual performance of music.

Its a problem live!? Wait till you try to mix a record with all this (modern?) superfluous sub bass floating about messing with the low end of the track and pumping the buss compressors for zero audible result on most monitor speakers.
So unless you can find some usable midrange, your live tone wont be on the record at least as far as an Ipod is concerned.
It was fine in the old days when there wasn't enough power X- max or EQ available to make that big a string balance/EQ mistake.
As you can guess I am a big fan of old school tones, you know the ones you can actually hear in a mix on an average stereo.

[bassman10096]

Mids and low mids are the prerequisite to how you project, sit in the mix out front, etc. I saw that with incredible clarity (pardon pun) when using a Schroeder 215. However, for my taste, I prefer having low-lows onstage as well. I use a Bag End ELF ultra low 118 in the bottom of my stack for this. I should say, the ELF system puts out the cleanest lows I've ever experienced, so it's far from the harmonically indistinct thump of a lot of subs. I like having that range on stage, my bandmates actually prefer the added onstage output over having more of me in their monitors (surprised me a bit) and there's less need to turn me up in the FOH subs. Add to that the fact the BE sub cab only weighs 65lb - I'm a happy camper.

[Zooberwerx]

Don't know about the Peavey enclosure but I've been using the Acme B-4's for the past ten years.

The Acmes work best when run with a flat amp EQ...although that varies model-by-model, manufacturer-by-manufacturer. You can actually get by with using nothing but the treble & mid attenuators to voice the cabinet accordingly. If you're still having problems with articulation, stick with a "cut-only" philosophy. 3 of my 4 preamps have at least a single parametric EQ band which works beautifully for this purpose. Attenuate by 3-4 dB and do a slow sweep...you'll unmask the "sweet spot" (maybe 2 or 3?) where the string presence suddenly jumps out while maintaining the low-end oomph. Generally, there's no need to boost anything although I have on occasion kicked in some addt'l 250 hz for experimentation.

Riis

[BassmanPaul]

Since I bought my B2s I too have found that flat or possibly a little bass cut seems to find the tone I am looking for.

Paul

[dhomer]

What I discovered a few years back.. my rig wanted to reproduce massive amounts of subsonic. One way to find out if this is the case, turn your rig up to gig volume, take off the speaker grille, and watch the cones when you just place your hand on the strings. If they jump like mad, you will definitely benefit from a 35Hz or so highpass filter in your signal chain. I use a Harrison Labs Fmod-Sub simply plugged into the effects loop. These filters are designed for autosound, but they are line level and passive.. Works wonders for cleaning the mud..

[BassmanPaul]

IMO, Fmods have too much slope to be all that effective. An active high pass filter with a slope of at least 24dB/octave would be more appropriate. However they are cheap so if they work for you that's great.

Paul

[Petebass]

Ok so we've addressed to OP's concern over the effect of the sub lows on note clarity. I knew that part would be addressed well as it's come up here many times before.

But no-one's offered insight on the notes apparently sounding "out-of tune" despite the bass being in tune. I was hoping for an educated insight into overtones. Anyone?

[jnewmark]

Originally Posted by Petebass

Ok so we've addressed to OP's concern over the effect of the sub lows on note clarity. I knew that part would be addressed well as it's come up here many times before.

But no-one's offered insight on the notes apparently sounding "out-of tune" despite the bass being in tune. I was hoping for an educated insight into overtones. Anyone?

This probably has nothing to do with it, but I had this problem with certain notes, I believe it was Ab and Eb. No matter what I did, including using two different basses, having a tech intonate both of them to death, had the cab and amp checked out, etc. what I finally came up with was that it was the brand of strings I was using! At the time, I was using Bass Boomers on both of my basses. I switched to Fender strings and the problem disappeared.