Markbass F1 - tried yesterday on gig - nice amp

[suraci]

I am coming from an all tube, bias
The Markbass was excellent sounding, through my Ampeg cab
the only issue I had was when I had to solo, I had no clue how to get a sound that worked. I have had this issue before.

Where does this F1 amp fit in among the remaining MArkbass offerings as far as its tone?
I suppose I would want the warmest sounding.

[KJung]

The F1 is, in my experience, 'bright and tight'. The LMIII is a bit fatter, warmer, and in a way, more 'tube like'.

I like them both very much!

[KJung]

I see you have a 7Pro thread up also. So, it sounds like you are looking for a tubey sounding lightweight amp.

Lots of choices, and lots of different 'tubey' tones.

The 7Pro seems to be a great choice for, not surprisingly, the Ampeg tube tone. Lots of power, reasonably small and light.

The Markbass LMIII is always very clean, and some say has a bit of that all tube warmth to it, although none of the tube feel... no give at all, very accurate, even and immediate. Great head, and many use a VT pedal in front of this warm but neutral platform to get a wide variety of tones... from clean to grindy.

GKFusion... bright, modern, aggressive GK tone. VERY bright. Not as grindy as the non tube versions (MB500), but nice aggressive bright tube tone.

Genz Shuttle 9... more similar than different from the GK.. not quite as goosed in the upper mids and treble. Modern, bright tube tone.

Genz Streamliner900.... FAT, big, deep. Probably the closest to an all tube signal chain in a hybrid amp. Powerful, deep, smooth, warm, and a bit of all tube feel.

Orange Terror Bass (500 and 1000).. does a great job of that super aggressive, mega distorted, in your face classic Orange tone. Yeah, you can get it clean, but that's not what it is a bout.


Lots of good stuff. If you like it clean, the Streamliner is quite something. It will snarl a bit, but that again doesn't seem to be its main thing. If you like the true Ampeg like tube tone, the 7pro seems like a good option (along with the Markbass LMIII and VT pedal).

[suraci]

Originally Posted by KJung

The F1 is, in my experience, 'bright and tight'. The LMIII is a bit fatter, warmer, and in a way, more 'tube like'.

I like them both very much!

I have ampeg bias - Can you suggest why ( maybe what amp setting on my vint J bass ) I hit such a sonic stumbling block when it was time to solo?
Which of the 2 amps ( there are essentially only TWO in the MB line? ) would be better for solo, in my case?

[suraci]

Originally Posted by KJung

I see you have a 7Pro thread up also. So, it sounds like you are looking for a tubey sounding lightweight amp.

Lots of choices, and lots of different 'tubey' tones.

The 7Pro seems to be a great choice for, not surprisingly, the Ampeg tube tone. Lots of power, reasonably small and light.

The Markbass LMIII is always very clean, and some say has a bit of that all tube warmth to it, although none of the tube feel... no give at all, very accurate, even and immediate. Great head, and many use a VT pedal in front of this warm but neutral platform to get a wide variety of tones... from clean to grindy.

GKFusion... bright, modern, aggressive GK tone. VERY bright. Not as grindy as the non tube versions (MB500), but nice aggressive bright tube tone.

Genz Shuttle 9... more similar than different from the GK.. not quite as goosed in the upper mids and treble. Modern, bright tube tone.

Genz Streamliner900.... FAT, big, deep. Probably the closest to an all tube signal chain in a hybrid amp. Powerful, deep, smooth, warm, and a bit of all tube feel.

Orange Terror Bass (500 and 1000).. does a great job of that super aggressive, mega distorted, in your face classic Orange tone. Yeah, you can get it clean, but that's not what it is a bout.


Lots of good stuff. If you like it clean, the Streamliner is quite something. It will snarl a bit, but that again doesn't seem to be its main thing. If you like the true Ampeg like tube tone, the 7pro seems like a good option (along with the Markbass LMIII and VT pedal).

And VT pedal is something by Sans amp??
The one I tried had no mid control, seemed odd. What am I not getting on the sans amp deal?
Thank you for your expert opinions

[KJung]

Originally Posted by suraci

I have ampeg bias - Can you suggest why ( maybe what amp setting on my vint J bass ) I hit such a sonic stumbling block when it was time to solo?
Which of the 2 amps ( there are essentially only TWO in the MB line? ) would be better for solo, in my case?

Well, not sure there. There are many amps in the Markbass line. The F1/F500 are very punchy and tight and upper mid present. Probably the opposite side of the tone and feel continuum of any tube amp I've ever played. My guess is, the even voicing and the quick feeling response was quite unforgiving for you versus the amp you might be used to. It will reproduce what you put into it relatively accurately.

The LMIII is a class A/B a (versus the F1/F500 class D design), and possibly due to that, the mids are a bit softer, the low end is a bit more extended, and the entire feel and vibe of the amp is a bit more 'soft and forgiving'. However, it still is 100% clean.. it will not distort or grind.

If you like the Ampeg type tone, the Ampeg hybrids have gotten MUCH better over the last couple of years. That being said, the warm, clean, fat LMII with a VT pedal sounds as good or better than most Ampeg hybrids, so if you are looking for small and light, and the ability to stay TOTALLY clean, that might be a good option.

I don't like the 800 series Markbass amps much. The hybrids aren't any more tubey sounding than the all solid state preamp models, and that 800 series is voiced differently from the other two lines... very deep down low, and VERY bright/modern in the upper mids.

What is is that you didn't like about the F1 when soloing?

[KJung]

Originally Posted by suraci

And VT pedal is something by Sans amp??
The one I tried had no mid control, seemed odd. What am I not getting on the sans amp deal?
Thank you for your expert opinions

Yes.

Not sure if my opinions are 'expert', but I do like trying out all these amps. I again was pretty impressed with the Markbass/VT pedal combination (the VT pedal does have a mid control). Given that the pedal sits between the bass and head, you have all the tone controls on the amp to use to sculpt your tone.

[Musicman20]

The VT Bass (version 2 is out now) has a mid control. You probably tried the Sansamp BDDI, has no mid control, but you can control the mids (sort of) with the bass and treble (leave them at 12 or cut...apparently).

They both work amazingly well with Markbass amps.

[suraci]

Originally Posted by KJung

......
What is is that you didn't like about the F1 when soloing?

Ken KJung
I only borrowed MB F1 for a gig, using the sub bass heavy Ampeg 410 HLF cab.
After using an SVT CL, the F1 was somehow more defined in the low to low mid; thus making the difficult task of gaining clarity in that lower range ( previously with SVT ) much easier. Band mate liked the F1 better than all tube svt. But also liked the GB Shuttle, the previous gig. The GB Shuttle ( the best articulation - clear and even sweet ) lacks something, loosely called "balls" or "ummph" or low mid punch . The F1 has more balls in that lower to low mid range than GB Shuttles ( Streamline I cannot say ) - but the ballsy F1 has MORE articulation in that lower range than the svt.

So for balls, power where it counts for all good fundamental type bass playing, in the low- low mid, PLUS clarity there, the F1 combined with a "lows heavy" 410 HLF ( ported and tuned to approx 30 Hz ) is the best compromise in that room, for that gig, with my passive J bass, so far!

BUT with solo- I felt lost with the F1. "Why?" Not sure... not enough time to experiment with it. I had just plugged in and played the gig.
You ( Ken ) say F1 "unforgiving" and " no grind " and " no give ".
Those phrases faintly resemble my experience with soloing on the bridge PU with MB F1.
I couldn't get certain overtones nor a certain tubey "creaminess"- "give"?? no grind, maybe? Might you define those description possibly, please?

I had same experience with another MB combo 210 (that I returned a few years ago)- great for lows and punch but issues with solo tone.

Time and time again, those 3 kinds of tone come up for me-
( seldom the scooped sound of Marcus, nor hifi , nor "distortion" type "metal" type sounds )
Three Sounds:
#1 a Solid deep, (but not toooo deep like for reggae) fundamental, what bass is meant to be. McCartney, Jamerson, Weeks, Dunn, Paladino on a Precision, etc etc- all different yet all with a solid old school fundamental.
#2 a very punchy sound... essentially similar to the deeper bass
but less bass and more low mids. I am guessing this is better for certain older school slapping.
and finally #3 an approx Jaco tone ( similar, ok! bridge PU soloed ) This tone has elements in varying degrees of #1 and #2. as well. For instance though Jaco played a "whining" fretless sound that I loved, its apparent lack of lows WAS countered by 18's on stage in other words elements of low bass, category #1
and he was also punchy, #2.
So his tone varied from a little of #1 to more #2 and #3.
He seldom sounded really deep without treble eg Duck Dunn.

All three, are part of a bass sound; how you "touch" string, and where, and eq determine which of the 3 come to the fore.

The above is my theory, but "in practice" on the bandstand, it is much more difficult to get all three of these under your control to a tee aka to perfection.
I can easily approximate them but to really nail them is what I am about; especially within the same tune or two; in other words quickly with a quick knob turn. This is where AMP choice comes to the fore!! If I want Motown, I would likely get the SVT 7 Pro. With that amp I KNOW I have #1 and likely #2.
I am torn between F1 and Svt 7, as you can tell! ****

Continuing:
I am playing good fundamental bass, at some point a little slapping is needed, though I CAN slap with the deeper tone- #1, to be honest, I prefer a little less bass- #2.
Then a solo comes, and I want a slightly different sculture to the sound with a backing off of neck PU- #3.

Just NAILING any ONE of these in any room is not always easy for me. Sometimes I get one, but not the other 2, etc.
The F1 shows promise in the #1 and #2 categories

Other amps do #3 better, or kill with #1 esp SVT 7 Pro.

I am hoping to get a new amp/ cab within the near future. I appreciate the help. Thank you for your time.

**** The battle between MB F1 and svt 7 breaks down to this

The svt 7 is sweeter, so the solo #3 would likely be easier using it.
The big question for me IS the svt 7 as defined in the lows as the F1?
If it isn't the F1 is in my future.

[KJung]

Hello again. To answer your question about what I mean by 'unforgiving', it is similar to the word 'quick' used on TB sometimes to describe the same thing. Of course, one amp isn't actually 'quicker' than another in an absolute sense, but an amp like the F1 that has a reasonably controlled low end (not super deep), a very present midrange response (with the F1, even a bit of a bump in the upper midrange which really makes the attack of the note seem to 'jump' from the instrument), and a reasonably even and present lower to upper treble response, can really make any sort of technique issues painfully obvious.

We all, of course, have technique issues of one type or another, and in a soloing situation with a relatively transparent head like the F1, you can hear some things that you might not have even heard before.

So, just a couple more comments that you might find helpful:

1) The 410 you have is probably among the most voiced (big low end, cloudy upper mids) cabs out there. So, what I call the 'mix and match' might not be optimal with a more transparent head like the F1. Never played that combination, so couldn't say.

2) If your 410 is 8ohms, the F1 probably won't have enough juice to really pump that cab to full performance. The 7Pro would. At 4ohms, either head would crank pretty well.

3) If your Shuttle experience is based on the Shuttle 6, then you need to play a Shuttle 9 before making your decision. The 9 is not only more powerful, but also is voiced much more full and meaty in the low end.

4) Finally, the LMIII might be a better fit for what you are trying to do than the F1. Still totally clean (no obvious distortion or grind.... grind is my descriptor of upper midrange distortion that lends a rough edge to a bass tone... ala Chris Squire as an extreme example), but is more 'forgiving' due to a more relaxed midrange response, and a voicing that is 'warmer' (i.e., a nice amount of controlled midrange 'distortion' that gives the amp a bit of tube like character).

Lots of words by me as usual! The good news is, you are able to try these heads, so let your ears guide you!

One thing that is VERY important.... realize the when you are trying out Markbass heads, the 'flat/neutral' setting on the amp is the EQ at noon and BOTH FILTERS OFF. Many make the mistake of setting those filters at noon, which sounds awful in every way. That being said, the VLE is a very useful control for smoothing and fattening up the head (it is a variable lo pass filter that rolls off top end).

Good luck with the search!

[Musicman20]

I would try, as Ken says, the LM3 as well as the F1...personally Id chose Markbass over the Ampeg amps, but thats more than likely because Im biased towards the latest manufacturers, and the fact the LM2/3 and F amps have such a good reliability record over the recent Ampeg amps.

[suraci]

Originally Posted by Musicman20

The VT Bass (version 2 is out now) has a mid control. You probably tried the Sansamp BDDI, has no mid control, but you can control the mids (sort of) with the bass and treble (leave them at 12 or cut...apparently).

They both work amazingly well with Markbass amps.

"Amazingly well", ok
If I might use my paradigm for bass- lows, punchy mids, highs, and if we assume that many here wish to have at least one, but preferably two or even three go-to sounds
and finally, if we can assume that each of the long time favorite amps have a signature sound that could roughly fit into some sort of unique ( unique to Shuttle, MB, Ampeg etc ) admixture of lows, mids and highs; may I ask you how you describe the tone you think best describes your Markbass without pedals? This provides us with a sort of reference point, for when you describe the added effect the pedal provides: what "missing" tones does the vt pedal provide you with?

[suraci]

Originally Posted by KJung

Hello again. To answer your question about what I mean by 'unforgiving', it is similar to the word 'quick' used on TB sometimes to describe the same thing. Of course, one amp isn't actually 'quicker' than another in an absolute sense, but an amp like the F1 that has a reasonably controlled low end (not super deep), a very present midrange response (with the F1, even a bit of a bump in the upper midrange which really makes the attack of the note seem to 'jump' from the instrument), and a reasonably even and present lower to upper treble response, can really make any sort of technique issues painfully obvious.

We all, of course, have technique issues of one type or another, and in a soloing situation with a relatively transparent head like the F1, you can hear some things that you might not have even heard before.

So, just a couple more comments that you might find helpful:

1) The 410 you have is probably among the most voiced (big low end, cloudy upper mids) cabs out there. So, what I call the 'mix and match' might not be optimal with a more transparent head like the F1. Never played that combination, so couldn't say.

2) If your 410 is 8ohms, the F1 probably won't have enough juice to really pump that cab to full performance. The 7Pro would. At 4ohms, either head would crank pretty well.

3) If your Shuttle experience is based on the Shuttle 6, then you need to play a Shuttle 9 before making your decision. The 9 is not only more powerful, but also is voiced much more full and meaty in the low end.

4) Finally, the LMIII might be a better fit for what you are trying to do than the F1. Still totally clean (no obvious distortion or grind.... grind is my descriptor of upper midrange distortion that lends a rough edge to a bass tone... ala Chris Squire as an extreme example), but is more 'forgiving' due to a more relaxed midrange response, and a voicing that is 'warmer' (i.e., a nice amount of controlled midrange 'distortion' that gives the amp a bit of tube like character).

Lots of words by me as usual! The good news is, you are able to try these heads, so let your ears guide you!

One thing that is VERY important.... realize the when you are trying out Markbass heads, the 'flat/neutral' setting on the amp is the EQ at noon and BOTH FILTERS OFF. Many make the mistake of setting those filters at noon, which sounds awful in every way. That being said, the VLE is a very useful control for smoothing and fattening up the head (it is a variable lo pass filter that rolls off top end).

Good luck with the search!

Lots of words from a thoughful player as yourself are highly valued by me!

The F1 was able to tame the excess of the 410hlf- I like them together in spite of what you describe as cloudy mids.
I agree, the mids in that cab are lacking.

It seems to me there are two approaches
go flat with cab
and flat with a highly modifiable amp

OR match cabs and amps with strong "personalities"

That cab certainly has a fat bottom, cloudy mids personality, but when I used the anemic shuttle 6 with it, I must say I liked that "odd couple"- 410 hlf and shuttle 6 BETTER than that same cab with the Shuttle 9 that I borrowed.
The shutttle 9 has more girth than the 6; just what that cab does NOT need. The 6 and that cab are something I may need to revisit.
Right now here is where I am ( subject to more testing !)
I would like to buy both the F1 AND the svt pro 7... And try the Shuttle 6 again.

[cchorney]

I'm running a Markbass CMD102P (a Little Mark III combined with a 2x10 front ported cab) and a Sansamp BDDI Deluxe. I am loving the tones. I did try the Markbass LM Tube but I think the Sansamp in front of a LMIII comes awfully close to that hybrid tube sound without the cost and complexity.

[suraci]

Originally Posted by cchorney

I'm running a Markbass CMD102P (a Little Mark III combined with a 2x10 front ported cab) and a Sansamp BDDI Deluxe. I am loving the tones. I did try the Markbass LM Tube but I think the Sansamp in front of a LMIII comes awfully close to that hybrid tube sound without the cost and complexity.

Bravo, I forgot my experience with the Little mark bass 210 combo
SO adding that revised pedal ( the one with mid control ) does what exactly for an already good tone with versatility?
My problem with that rig ( minus the pedal, which I have to acquire soon ! ) is the darn high end.. I could not get my Jaco imitation going!!
And can you relate to this? I added a mb 15 to the mb 210 combo and the 15 addition just dissolved the mojo of the 210's.
I was told a matching mb 210 was the ticket.
Thank you

[cchorney]

Originally Posted by suraci

Bravo, I forgot my experience with the Little mark bass 210 combo
SO adding that revised pedal ( the one with mid control ) does what exactly for an already good tone with versatility?
My problem with that rig ( minus the pedal, which I have to acquire soon ! ) is the darn high end.. I could not get my Jaco imitation going!!
And can you relate to this? I added a mb 15 to the mb 210 combo and the 15 addition just dissolved the mojo of the 210's.
I was told a matching mb 210 was the ticket.
Thank you

I didn't find the lack of a mid control to be a factor for me, and the VT has its own sound anyway, so I recommend trying both if possible before making a decision. The pedal is amp/cab emulator of sorts, in addition to basic eq controls it gives you some other adjustablilities. I'm not describing it well. I'll tell you this, I read about it in this forum and didn't think much of it, then I went to a store to try out compressors and saw one and said "what the heck" and tried it out, and that was that for me - I was sold on the sound!

Regarding mixing cabs, there's a school of thought on this forum that that is bad. I don't know enough to have an opinion on this, other than to say that Markbass recommends pairing their 102 with their 15 - but I do know I need a second cab to give the volume I need (that little 210 just isn't enough for me, though the head surely is) and I will be getting a 102HF as a second cab - and I will be stacking them vertically too (so its a column of 4 speakers, rather than 2 sideways over 2 sideways like a standard 4x10)

[KJung]

A couple more thoughts.

First, you comparison of the Shuttle 6 with the 9 makes much sense. With that particular cab, a head voiced tighter down low and brighter up top like the 6 might sound a bit clearer and 'better'. So, +1 there.

Regarding the VT pedal, to me, that should be thought of as a distortion pedal, not particularly an EQ pedal (even though it does have EQ). Most of the players I know that use that pedal use it to 'tube up' an otherwise clean, solid state amp, engaging it when they want some of the famous 'Ampeg' growl and grind for a given song, and then bypassing it to get back to the clean tone of an amp like the LMIII or F1/F500.

The VT is designed to emulate the various tones of a classic SVT head, and to my ear, does that quite well... from a bit more warmth to full grind and crunch.

If you dig the F1 tone and are looking for a bit more mid control in the EQ, then the F500 is the thing. It sounds identical to the F1, but has additional features.... two bands of semi-parametric midrange EQ, a push/pull mute switch on the master, and a more fully featured DI with pre/post switch and level. Pretty nice, and with the VT pedal in front of it, most of the Ampeg guys seem to be pretty happy.

If you always play 'clean', then IMO the VT pedal would be a bit of a waste.

[suraci]

cchorney The combo 210 is a fr ported cab, I don't know model of cab, if I decide to go modular. In any case which of the 3 210 mb cabs are you talking about that would marry well?

[suraci]

Originally Posted by KJung

A couple more thoughts.

First, you comparison of the Shuttle 6 with the 9 makes much sense. With that particular cab, a head voiced tighter down low and brighter up top like the 6 might sound a bit clearer and 'better'. So, +1 there.

Regarding the VT pedal, to me, that should be thought of as a distortion pedal, not particularly an EQ pedal (even though it does have EQ). Most of the players I know that use that pedal use it to 'tube up' an otherwise clean, solid state amp, engaging it when they want some of the famous 'Ampeg' growl and grind for a given song, and then bypassing it to get back to the clean tone of an amp like the LMIII or F1/F500.

The VT is designed to emulate the various tones of a classic SVT head, and to my ear, does that quite well... from a bit more warmth to full grind and crunch.

If you dig the F1 tone and are looking for a bit more mid control in the EQ, then the F500 is the thing. It sounds identical to the F1, but has additional features.... two bands of semi-parametric midrange EQ, a push/pull mute switch on the master, and a more fully featured DI with pre/post switch and level. Pretty nice, and with the VT pedal in front of it, most of the Ampeg guys seem to be pretty happy.

If you always play 'clean', then IMO the VT pedal would be a bit of a waste.

I will try it ( VT deluxe, correct ?) but with considerable reserve because I like an unveiled sound- at least my definition of unveiled lol .

F500 is a newer incarnation then? Could the extra eq help out the "soloing" issue I am having, u know unforgiving and all that? where do u use the extra eq?

[KJung]

Originally Posted by suraci

I will try it ( VT deluxe, correct ?) but with considerable reserve because I like an unveiled sound- at least my definition of unveiled lol .

F500 is a newer incarnation then? Could the extra eq help out the "soloing" issue I am having, u know unforgiving and all that? where do u use the extra eq?

The F500 is the 'newer' model, but they are both still available. Set 'flat' they sound identical. EQ freq use is very dependent on the cabinet, so hard to answer. As an example, I was able to lower the low mid center point versus the F1 when I had my Epifani 410UL, and fatten up the lows a bit on that cab (big lows on that cab way down low, but not a lot of lower midrange meat to the voicing).

The VT deluxe has storable presets and a DI, versus the regular VT pedal. I have not A/B'd them, but assume they sound relatively the same, with features being the main difference.