markbass tube 800 and front ported neo 4x10

[Merlo]

I am in the market for a new amp. I have almost decided on the markbass tube 800 and the front ported neo 4x10. I am having trouble deciding on the 4 or 8 ohm cab. Any advice(especially from owners of this combination) would be much appreciated. Thanks

[magic papa]

This really depends whether you want to add another cab to the setup in the future. LT 800 is 800W at 4ohm, and the Neo 4x10 cab is 800W, so if you plan to stick with a single cab I'd go for 4Ohm one. Otherwise you won't be able to get all the power from the amp.

If you plan to add another cab to the stack in the future then you should go with 8Ohm, because the head can't go lower than 4Ohm (adding anything to 4Ohm will make it less than 4Ohm).

The downside of the second option is that you will only get about 500W from the head until you add another cab.

Hope this helps

MP

[RickenBoogie]

Get the 8 ohm cab regardless of whether you plan on a 2nd cab or not. First off, the 800 watt rating on the cab is the point where the voice coil will melt, NOT how much actual power the cab can take, which is usually about HALF the rating. So, an 8 ohm cab will handle what the amp gives it just fine, and then you have the option of addind the 2nd cab IF you need more volume.

[magic papa]

Originally Posted by RickenBoogie

Get the 8 ohm cab regardless of whether you plan on a 2nd cab or not. First off, the 800 watt rating on the cab is the point where the voice coil will melt, NOT how much actual power the cab can take, which is usually about HALF the rating. So, an 8 ohm cab will handle what the amp gives it just fine, and then you have the option of addind the 2nd cab IF you need more volume.

I think you actually more likely to blow the speakers by using underpowered amp. Although it is true that this shouldn't be the case in this instance; 500W should be fine.

And on decent cabs the ratings are correct. I've never heard about them being handle only half the power. This may be true for the cheapo ones.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by magic papa

I think you actually more likely to blow the speakers by using underpowered amp. Although it is true that this shouldn't be the case in this instance; 500W should be fine.

And on decent cabs the ratings are correct. I've never heard about them being handle only half the power. This may be true for the cheapo ones.

wrong on both counts, sorry. underpowering is a myth that has been disproven every time someone uses a synth or turns a distortion unit on. speakers only blow when they're overpowered, never under.

and the cab power ratings are not correct most of the time. the vast majority of cab makers use the ratings that the voice coils will melt as set by the speaker manufacturer to determine the power handling of their cabs. but in real world usage, cabs will become distorted and farty sounding at a point that's usually about half of the stated rating. i have played through almost the entire markbass line of cabs and found that this holds true for them. they use neos which will take a bit more pounding than most regular ceramic speakers, but it's still not anywhere close to the stated power handling ratings.

not singling markbass out because most companies do it, but it's a practice i would like to see stopped because i've seen a lot of people who don't know this blow their speakers while thinking they were still in the safe power handling range.

[magic papa]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

wrong on both counts, sorry. underpowering is a myth that has been disproven every time someone uses a synth or turns a distortion unit on. speakers only blow when they're overpowered, never under.

Sorry, don't agree. Speakers will handle less if they are fed overdriven singal. They will handle more if you feed them a clean one. If you study signal theory a bit it will be explained. There's no myth, just physics. If they survive overdriven signal it means they can actually handle more RMS power than stated, not half as you suggest.

Actually I think the most common reason for speaker failure is feeding them clipped signal, not "overpowering" as understood by matching the RMS values. Most of amps built today haven't got that much headroom and if you run them at full blast they will almost certainly clip and cause coils to heat up. But that doesn't mean the cab can only handle half of capacity as stated by RMS value.

Originally Posted by JimmyM

and the cab power ratings are not correct most of the time. the vast majority of cab makers use the ratings that the voice coils will melt as set by the speaker manufacturer to determine the power handling of their cabs. but in real world usage, cabs will become distorted and farty sounding at a point that's usually about half of the stated rating. i have played through almost the entire markbass line of cabs and found that this holds true for them. they use neos which will take a bit more pounding than most regular ceramic speakers, but it's still not anywhere close to the stated power handling ratings.

Power handling is expressed as RMS, which implies sinusoidal signal. Again - if you feed square wave than the handling will be much less. This is because the RMS power of square wave is more than this of sine wave with the same amplitude. It is a very over-simplified explanation though

It's a bit of a chicken and egg situation, but a clean, unclipped signal from an amp should not hurt the cab if the RMS value is not exceeded. And more power in the amp will give let you drive the amp a bit lower in which case it will be less likely to clip. Yes - if you crank it up to full -it will clip at higher power and blow your speakers faster, but the trick is to get the right volume before this happens.

I agree that manufacturers often overstate the capabilities of their equipment, don't know whether this is the case for MarkBass (didn't think so).

Sorry for a long explanation, but I though there was a bit of heresy that needed to be straightened

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by magic papa

Sorry, don't agree. Speakers will handle less if they are fed overdriven singal. They will handle more if you feed them a clean one. If you study signal theory a bit it will be explained. There's no myth, just physics. If they survive overdriven signal it means they can actually handle more RMS power than stated, not half as you suggest.

an overdriven signal will be expressed in wattage. the speaker isn't handling "less wattage." the wattage you're putting into the speaker will be more. the speaker will still handle the same wattage it always did.

Actually I think the most common reason for speaker failure is feeding them clipped signal, not "overpowering" as understood by matching the RMS values. Most of amps built today haven't got that much headroom and if you run them at full blast they will almost certainly clip and cause coils to heat up. But that doesn't mean the cab can only handle half of capacity as stated by RMS value.

displacement. again, the power handling value of most cabs is to tell you the wattage where the voice coils are expected to toast. but way before that point, displacement limitation comes into play. depending on the cab design, the displacement limitations can easily be half the rating that the voice coils toast at. some are more, some are less.

and dude, i've been playing overdriven amps and used a ton of distortion pedals all my life and have never blown a speaker due to the clipping that comes from it. mere clipping alone does not blow speakers. if a clip blows a speaker, it's because it overpowered it. i can turn my 25w b-15 up all the way into an 810e and never be the least bit concerned about blowing a speaker due to clipping.

Power handling is expressed as RMS, which implies sinusoidal signal. Again - if you feed square wave than the handling will be much less. This is because the RMS power of square wave is more than this of sine wave with the same amplitude. It is a very over-simplified explanation though

see, you said it yourself..."the RMS power of square wave is more than this of sine wave with the same amplitude." the handling of the cab has not become much less...the wattage you're giving it has increased.

It's a bit of a chicken and egg situation, but a clean, unclipped signal from an amp should not hurt the cab if the RMS value is not exceeded. And more power in the amp will give let you drive the amp a bit lower in which case it will be less likely to clip. Yes - if you crank it up to full -it will clip at higher power and blow your speakers faster, but the trick is to get the right volume before this happens.

I agree that manufacturers often overstate the capabilities of their equipment, don't know whether this is the case for MarkBass (didn't think so).

Sorry for a long explanation, but I though there was a bit of heresy that needed to be straightened

heresy??? dude, you not only need to check yourself, but you need to read the amps faq instead of thinking you know everything and i know nothing.

[magic papa]

I didn't say or suggest you knew nothing and I knew everything. Have a read about RMS power vs. program power vs. maximum power.

You can run whatever into whatever if this works for you, but please don't tell people who ask for advice that cabs can only handle half the power they are advertised for (unless they are very, very bad cabs )

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by magic papa

I didn't say or suggest you knew nothing and I knew everything. Have a read about RMS power vs. program power vs. maximum power.

i already have, plus i've spent a few years in this forum discussing it with many great cab designers who know their stuff way more than me. have you read the amps faq yet? have you read about displacement limitation yet?

You can run whatever into whatever if this works for you, but please don't tell people who ask for advice that cabs can only handle half the power they are advertised for (unless they are very, very bad cabs )

dude, i'll tell people whatever i want to tell them. and i try my darndest to be responsible about it. and this is one of those situations where i am being 100% responsible. it's a proven fact that most companies quote thermal power handling ratings for cabs and not displacement limited power ratings. i didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday. don't talk to me like i did.

[magic papa]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

i didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday. don't talk to me like i did.

No worries mate, relax. I would gladly continue the discussion, but it looks like you're going to get your own coils overheated. So let's pull the plug (I do anyway).

[JimmyM]

would have been fine if you didn't call what i said "heresy."

[Merlo]

Thanks for the advice. What amps do you guys play currently? Also is there anyone here who owns a markbass tube 800 and neo 4x10 with their personal decision to my dilemma. Still wondering if I this cab has the bass response and punch that I want or if I'll need to add a 15 in future or if I'd be better off buying a 2x10 and a 15. Thanks

[Big John66]

I've gigged the tube 800 through a 8 ohm Avatar 4x10 neo. Not the exact same cab but pretty close, I'd imagine. The head gets plenty loud for my rock band through the 8ohm cab. Get the 8 ohm mb cab and you'll have power to spare if you add another cab.

[silky smoove]

FYI: Jimmy's correct.

[levis76]

I vote MB Tube 800 w/ 2 8ohm 15s. You won't be sorry. Portable and loud. I like the MB 15s much more than their 10s , but that is my personal preference.

IMO, 8ohm cabs are the way to go. The only benefit to running a single 4ohm cab is the additional headroom you will get from the amp. You really won't notice a difference in volume between a 4ohm cab and an 8ohm cab. Any given cabinet is only going to get so loud no matter how much power you feed it. If you want more volume you need more speakers, thus an 8ohm cab is superior in that you can add another 8ohm cab, whereas with the 4ohm, your stuck with just one.

Listen to the guys that have been around the block a few times, like JimmyM, who know what they are talking about through personal experience not just because they read about it on the internet.

Now let's see how long it takes for someone to chime in about how you shouldn't mix driver sizes, like a 210 and 15, or it will split the space/time continuum and destroy the universe or was it something about phase cancellation and driver efficiency disparities? I can never remember....

For the record, I personally use a single 8ohm cab and my head puts out 320W@8ohms. I have another cabinet but I have never needed both, one gets the job done right.

[Merlo]

@levis76 thanks for the advice I think I will go with the 8 ohm.
Also has anyone tried the new york 804 cab? Any opinions on it? Thanks

[levis76]

Originally Posted by magic papa

I agree that manufacturers often overstate the capabilities of their equipment, don't know whether this is the case for MarkBass (didn't think so).

ALL amplifier/driver manufacturers overstate their equipments specs. Car audio, home audio, professional music gear, you name it. Why do you think they advertise the peak numbers and not the continuous RMS? It's all about putting the big numbers on the box and it's industry wide and unfortunately it's standard practice and it's not against any laws or regulations.
Oh sure, they really do test the amp to ensure it puts out the amount of power they say it does, but they cheat. Testing involves feeding an amplifier a specific range of frequencies and calculating RMS power, peak power, noise, THD, and efficiency with just the info gained from feeding it this signal. Problem with this method is the manufacturer does not have to use the full advertised range of freq to do the testing, in fact they rarely do. They use a much narrower band of freqs to get the power numbers they want to put on the pretty box. This way they get inflated power ratings, lower THD, lower signal to noise, and in a lot of cases less heat. So you think you have a 500W amp, when in fact it's only about 350W when you feed it a full range signal and it goes into thermal cutoff every 5 min because they didn't bother to engineer decent cooling for actual use which happens often.
The new standard (it's not required, but should be) involves feeding the amp it's full range of advertised freq to more accurately measure the RMS output. Results have been eye opening. Go check out car stereos on Crutchfield. They require this new type of testing on anything with an amplifier that they sell. Where continuous RMS output used to be 24W (50W peak) for car stereos, now they are 14W. Pretty damn big difference if you ask me.

Originally Posted by magic papa

Sorry for a long explanation, but I though there was a bit of heresy that needed to be straightened

If you're going to argue with people on this forum and call them heretics, you better make damn sure your facts are straight, especially when that person has been an invaluable asset to the TB community for many years, so why don't you just stick to popping on every couple days to spout off a few useless comments that have no value whatsoever.

You see how putting a smiley after that last sentence didn't make it sound less insulting? Get the picture?

Underpowering bass speakers is a myth that has been perpetuated by amp manufacturers/salesmen to get gullible people to buy bigger amps. Stop spreading the lie.

[JazzbassArt]

http://www.eminence.com/support/understanding-loudspeaker-data/

[magic papa]

Originally Posted by JazzbassArt

http://www.eminence.com/support/understanding-loudspeaker-data/

Thank you. Here is more reading: http://www.jblpro.com/pub/technote/spkpwfaq.pdf (go to section 4).

Please note that this information comes from speaker manufacturers.

Apologies if anybody felt offended by my previous comments. I thought smileys would do the job, they obviously didn't.

[LowDownBassist]

I've been using a MB Tube 800 and MB 4x10HF and 2x10 Traveler. The set up is great. Both cabs are 8 ohms. The head goes to the 4x10 and then from the 4x10 a second speakon cable connects the 2x10. I've messed around with just the 4x10 and always have had the level of power needed. For a short period of time I've ran the 2x10 by itself also. Of course the sound is fuller with the 4x10 and/or 2 cabs together. The 2x10 will be fine for smaller gigs and transporting around to practices or fill ins.

Down the road I would like to add a 1x15 Traveler to use with either of my 2x10 or 4x10, of course not all 3 together.

IMO .... get the 4x10HF - 8ohm, Tube 800.

When money allows you can get other MB cabs to mix and match and run 4 ohms if needed.

FYI ...... I have had several emails and phone calls with Peter Murray of Markbass (he gave me his personal cell phone number). After telling him what I was trying to achieve (practice rig, small gig to large, light weight) he recommend my set-up I use today. THANKS Peter !!!

My set-up:
1-Markbass Little Mark Tube 800
1-Markbass 104HF
1-Markbass 102P

Good luck !