Mesa Bass 400 Setup

suraj · #1 04-14-2011, 11:33 AM

So its been a while since i've owned the Mesa Bass 400 and after a lot of trouble its finally in a good reliable working condition. And now that I have a genz benz uber 212, its kicking some major butt

The only issue i have is, I also own a hartke ha3500 and when I plug that into the genz benz, the low end is a lot tighter, punchier and has a lot more fundamentals which can be felt.

Is it just that all tube amps lack that fundamental deep bottom or is there something I can do to my amp..

My Mesa sports JJ KT88's, and adjustable bias mod, and all new F&T caps. Also i'm using all JJ 12AX7's.

RCCollins · #2 04-14-2011, 11:36 AM

the mesa tone stack is very mid-heavy, and gets even more so as you turn up the preamp volume. try backing off on the volume and turning up the master for a flatter sound, and keep in mind that "flat" mids on the 400 might be as low as 9 o'clock! Reel those mids in and I think you'll notice the low end you were missing, which was always there, just not as loud as the mids

RickenBoogie · #3 04-14-2011, 11:37 AM

It could be just a matter of available power, since those lows require substantially more wattage than other freq's. What's the RMS wattage of the Harke vs. the Mesa?

suraj · #4 04-14-2011, 11:50 AM

Yeah it is mid heavy for sure, a bit too mid heavy...Dont get me wrong, the low end is there, only it lacks that really low end fundamental which the solid state power section of the Hartke 3500 can give. If i have to describe it, the hartke's low end is chest hitting while the Mesa's is a lot smoother.

The hartke puts out 350 watts at 4ohms which is how im running it, and the Mesa is giving out (i have no clue) watts. Im running the Mesa with 6 KT88's so I think im somewhere in the clean 150-180 watts

Is it the power that makes all this difference in producing the fundamentals..?

Thanks rickenboogie by the way for suggesting me the Uber 212...It really is an amazing cab and the shear output and its low mid heavy tone makes it the most valuable thing in my rig..

EDIT : Can a different brand/type of power or pre tubes give me more fundamentals.. I have enough power from the Mesa and my cab is really efficient so I don't mind losing a bit of audible output by diverting more power to the fundamentals..

I might put up sound clips to explain the differences. But is it normal for a tube amp to have lesser ground shaking low end as compared to a solid state amp..?

JoshuaTSP · #5 04-14-2011, 12:06 PM

define "fundamental"

Bunyo · #6 04-14-2011, 12:08 PM

I have Mesa 400+ and I dont know why you lacking lower freq on mesa 400, it is very similar amp. I Play on two 15' by mesa and the ground shakes very nice when I play through it. And I have bass set on 3, trebble 2,5 and mids 10. I simply cannot imagine that Hartke might even come close to that. It is very essential, meaty tone punch.

BassmanPaul · #7 04-14-2011, 12:16 PM

It could be as simple as you preferring how a SS amp reacts rather than how a tube amp reacts.

suraj · #8 04-14-2011, 12:44 PM

i love how the tube amp feels and sounds. Paul maybe right but I would say i like the tube amp in the midrange and highs and like the ss in the lows..i'll put up sound clips to explain the issue.

to Bunyo, I myself thought the mesa would be more ground shaking than an equivalent ss hartke, but after I tried both amps to the same cab, both amps gave good lows, onw just better than the other. Also the character of the lows was different. The hartke had more ground shaking chest hitting lows(fundamentals), and the mesa was more rounded and smooth giving more low mids, but didn't really give the very bottom..

nukes_da_bass · #9 04-14-2011, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunyo

I have Mesa 400+ and I dont know why you lacking lower freq on mesa 400, it is very similar amp. I Play on two 15' by mesa and the ground shakes very nice when I play through it. And I have bass set on 3, trebble 2,5 and mids 10. I simply cannot imagine that Hartke might even come close to that. It is very essential, meaty tone punch.

+400.

Tube amps have different "attack" than SS amps. You may not like the way a tube amp attacks- different SPL's.

Try a compressor!

Calaverasgrande · #10 04-14-2011, 12:54 PM

You are crazy. Check yourself in to an institution before you harm someone.
I have been able to rattle my Bass 400 off of it cabinet, onto the floor, with its lack of bass.
I would start by defeating the graphic eq. Then set the eq to bass 2. middle 10, treble 2. Plug into input 1 with no knobs pulled out (which shifts the corner freq of the eq).
Play some bass at reasonable volume. Now turn the bass knob up a few and see if its bassy enough? If not, try pulling the bass knob out, which shifts the corner up a bit.
When run clean my bass 400 gets frightening loud amounts of low bass. One of the first time I tried running the amp clean with my 3 15" cabs I turned around because I thought I heard something fall over. It was the thump of the bass!
Run clean I actually find the 400 to be too similar to a SS amp for my tastes. I like some funkiness in my amp, even when clean. See also, Fender bassman, TRaynor YBA1a.

suraj · #11 04-14-2011, 01:02 PM

LOL you guys have 3x15 cabs so there's a difference..plus have you compared the bass 400 to another ss high power amp through the same cab/s..!!

I shall put up sound clips tomorrow to explain..

Calaverasgrande · #12 04-14-2011, 01:09 PM

Actually, yes. Immediately before I bought my Bass 400 I was running a preamp into a QSC power amp which powered a 2x15 and a 4x10. I never managed to rattle that amp off of the cabinets, and it was lighter by 15 lbs or so!
The Uber 2x12 is supposed to be a formidable cabinet is it not?
Though it does occur to me that perhaps its frequency vs impedance doesn't line up in a way the the Mesa likes. The 400 seems to love 15" speakers a lot though!

Craig_S · #13 04-14-2011, 01:26 PM

I've played through a Mesa 400+ for a show, once. It didn't have a lack of low end. It was paired with a Mesa 4-10. I didn't care for it. I don't know if there was an issue with the amp or what, but I couldn't get it loud enough (and we weren't a loud band). I had a HA3500 for years. I never had a problem with it. I ran it through a Ampeg SVT 410. It was louder than and sounded better than the Mesa, to my ears.

ryankself · #14 04-14-2011, 01:44 PM

For me, I use the graphic eq to take a lot of the clank out and add low-mids. I also changed the V4 preamp tube (left-most if you're looking at the front of the amp) to a 12au7 and that seems to have cleaned up the preamp a bit. Anyway, here's what mine looks like:

Mid - 10
Low - 2 (pushed in)
High - 0 (pushed in)

Graphic eq from left to right -
(0) (+1/2) (+1/2) (0) (-1/2) (-1)
(where 0 is the middle, 1/2 is between the middle and the first line above, 1 is the first line above, etc)

Channel 2 - 5
Master - 5 or higher, depending on the venue

It works for me. Maybe not bone crushing in terms of subs, but I think it sounds pretty good with the band.

Calaverasgrande · #15 04-14-2011, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig_S

I've played through a Mesa 400+ for a show, once. It didn't have a lack of low end. It was paired with a Mesa 4-10. I didn't care for it. I don't know if there was an issue with the amp or what, but I couldn't get it loud enough (and we weren't a loud band). I had a HA3500 for years. I never had a problem with it. I ran it through a Ampeg SVT 410. It was louder than and sounded better than the Mesa, to my ears.

The 400 can be kind of tricky to get to sound right. I was hooked the first time I tried one. Though to be honest it took me years to get a handle on the tone controls and gain structure. We have it easy though. Have you ever seen a Mesa MK IV or Dual Rectifier guitar head? They have so many knobs and switches that they continue on the back of the amp! On band mate remarked about his head "there should be a class in how to use these things". He eventually went to Marshall.

suraj · #16 04-14-2011, 02:00 PM

it sounds very good I have no complains about that..The uber 2x12 is a really really good cab, and does give everything the amp gives.

I like how my amp sounds but somewhere at the back of my head, I feel I could do something to make it sound better. I did the adjustable bias mod, I upgraded all caps, I upgraded from 6l6's to KT88's, upgraded the pre tubes to all JJ 12AX7's.. Maybe i'll try the famous 12AU7 mod..Since the amp is so old, and I bought it from a store without knowing anything about its past, maybe some of the components may need replacement and I dont care as long as its sounding fine. But is it sounding fine?? I don't know..That's why im comparing it to another amp, and seeing where the mesa lacks and excels..

suraj · #17 04-14-2011, 02:02 PM

Again, the low end isn't lacking, by no means.. Its just not as punchy/attacky and is SLIGHTLY lacking in the sub region. Maybe i'll try a compressor.

Caca de Kick · #18 04-14-2011, 03:01 PM

Its difficult to quantify things, especiallly two very different amps.
I once owned the Hartke 3500 as a backup to my Bass 400, and it was no comparison. The 3500 didn't have the balls or tonal character to keep up, and I never noticed a lack in the Boogie's lows comparing them. I sold the 3500 and bought a 500w Ampeg B500-something-or-other just to keep up with what the Boogie was capable of.

Now what might be that you're hearing is the difference in attack between a SS and tube amp. The tubes go into a natural compression when hitting hard, and the 3500 may just seem more instantaneous or 'sharper' on the attack. But I always had a hard time finding a 'worthy' backup amp that would have the same richness in mids/low mids as the Boogie.

I've always run my master up way higher than my input volumes because I like the clear(er) sound it gives at lighter playing, then being able to push it to overdrive dynamics from there. My slider eq settings are darn-near the same as what Ryankself posted, but I still run the tone knobs higher depending on the venue.

I will add, I tried compressors twice with my Boogie; one was a Boss pedal, and the other an Ashdown pedal. I didn't like the result....seemed to make a tube amp really squishy.

ryankself · #19 04-14-2011, 03:16 PM

When I play the thing by itself, and especially when I compare it to my Ashdown ABM 900, I get the feeling that the 400 is too clacky and I'm missing low end and maybe I should play the Ashdown more because it just feels like it's got more bassy bass going on.

When I play the 400 with the band or live, though, it just sounds right to me (and to them). That's one thing that always gets me about comparing amps; I have to get over how they sound in my basement solo, and I need to play them in a band setting to decide on which amp or eq settings or anything like that.

suraj · #20 04-14-2011, 05:57 PM

I guess its the perceived attack in this case.. Maybe im perceiving the hartke to have more punchy lows because of the quick attack. I can get my bass 400 to sound really round and ballsy with the 40 - 250 sliders halfway up, just thought it was fair to compare the two amps when set flat..

Thanks for all the responses

And thanks to Caca de Kick for suggesting me this awesome amp. I wasn't in love with it in the beginning, but after all the upgrades its tone scares me..!! its one wonderful amp worth preserving for years. Its built like a tank, chassis's made of a non rusting metal and makes current production amps, seem old, in terms of features and tone...!! it was truely built waaay ahead of its time..

by the way ryankself, how does the Mesa 400 sound throught that NV412..??!!