Micros...do they sound saggy to you?

[JimmyM]

I have yet to play a lead sled SS or hybrid amp that I've liked as much as I like micro SS and hybrid amps. Although they don't have the big honking presence of tube amps, I think they sound a lot closer to the tube amp ideal than lead sleds. At worst, they sound as good to me as a lead sled...at best, they can sound downright tubey. To my ears, anyway.

But I've seen more than one comment from people who consider them toys. Some have said they felt saggy and mushy like tube amps, and they prefer lead sleds because they feel tighter.

Now most of the time, I run my amps clean regardless if they're tube or SS, and I never feel like they sag so maybe I'm not attuned to it. However, the two micros that I've owned (the LMII and the Micro VR) have an incredibly tubey vibe to them. Of course it's not quite the same...the Micro VR does a nice light breakup but no heavy stuff, and the LMII doesn't break up at all without hard clipping...but darn if they don't both make me think of tubers. Not all micros I've played put me in the mind of tubers, but enough do that I think there might be something to it.

So maybe you folks who are more attuned to the sag thing in tube amps at clean volumes than I am can answer this...on the whole, do you think micros sag similar to tube amps? And for those who design them who might want to chime in, is there anything on a scientific level that supports this assumption?

Please bear in mind that I'm talking about clean tones only, not dirty tones. Of course tube amps sag when you start cooking tubes, so let's not even bother discussing it. And before this thing degenerates into another tube vs. ss thread (and it will), just remember that the vast majority of people on here couldn't give a rat's ass which format you prefer, so please keep your agendas out of it and just answer the question as good as you can. And then I won't have to go all street on yo' azz!

[Munjibunga]

Well, my Shuttle 9.0 is pretty danged tight. Not quite like my (ex) Heart-Rock, but not tubey at all to my ear. On the other hand, my RH750 seems a little "tubier" even with the Tube Tone control all the way down. Not quite as tubey as my DB750, though. The Tube Tone control can introduce what I assume to be some really nice tube grit. (I wouldn't really know ... I'm not a tube afficionado.)

Keep in mind, street or not, "all light weight amps sound like crap."

_{(Man, I'd like the author of that to come listen to a few of my rigs.)}

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

Keep in mind, street or not, "all light weight amps sound like crap."

Well now, that didn't take very long

The person who said that is entitled to his opinion. I disagree, but I have no problem with him saying that because our tastes in gear aren't exactly identical. That comment was a major reason I started this thread, BTW. The things he didn't like about them made me think that they could possibly be what I like about them, even if I didn't hear them quite the same way he did.

[prd004]

What does "Saggy" mean?

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by prd004

What does "Saggy" mean?

I have always thought "saggy" meant like when a tube amp is turned up to the edge of distortion, and playing a little hard would cause a slight breakup. Never thought of it in reference to clean tones, but since a lot of micros are only capable of producing clean tones, I now wonder if it means something else that I'm not picking up on.

[prd004]

Hmmm.......never heard the term before.

On the original topic of micro amps: I am always leery of new technology, there's always the "new" thing that gets all the buzz, and is popular for a short period but doesn't stand the test of time. So I always refrain from jumping on board, and I felt that way with the micro amp craze. Plus I'm not really in the market for a new amp so I haven't really given them a test drive either. On the other hand my favorite amp is the B100-R, and I suppose if I took the amp out of that combo, it very well might qualify as a micro! (Although the cabinet and speaker are huge factors in the brilliant sound of that particular amp)!

But it seems like they here to stay and one day I may even own one!

[Jeff Scott]

I am still working through the tonal issues with my amps. I have a LDS 212+6 cabinet (4Ω) that so far with my Markbass F1 still does not give me quite what i am seeking, The cabinet sounds better with my Walter Woods Super, and yesterday, for kicks, I hooked up my early '70s Princeton Reverb Amp to the cabinet (which prefers an 8 Ω load, and lo and behold, I get this glorious full, even, bottomless, bright, clear tone. Arrgghh!!! Why does this low power guitar amp sound amazing? I have not tried it yet at band practice to see if can keep up, I don't really expect 12 mostly unclean watts to do so, but.......

If the tone is there, I think I need to find a Dual Showman amp as that is designed to run 4Ω. A Bassman head may do if it can withstand the constant 100% impedance mismatch for long, loud periods of time.

Oh yeah, I do not think my micro heads sound saggy, certainly not like the Princeton Reverb Amp can with it's 5U4 rectifier.

[Passinwind]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

I have always thought "saggy" meant like when a tube amp is turned up to the edge of distortion, and playing a little hard would cause a slight breakup. Never thought of it in reference to clean tones, but since a lot of micros are only capable of producing clean tones, I now wonder if it means something else that I'm not picking up on.

Most people I 've discussed it with perceive it as a form of compression.

Here's one take from a pretty reputable source.

[Munjibunga]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Well now, that didn't take very long

The person who said that is entitled to his opinion. I disagree, but I have no problem with him saying that because our tastes in gear aren't exactly identical. That comment was a major reason I started this thread, BTW. The things he didn't like about them made me think that they could possibly be what I like about them, even if I didn't hear them quite the same way he did.

I just wanted to get it out of the way. As one who owns or has owned some of the best SS and hybrid amps out there, I'm really digging the little lightweights. While it was hard to let the WT-800 and HR go, the Shuttle and RH750 (and WTX-500) are easing the pain.

I'm finding that some amps are more suited to one type of cab over another. I prefer the RH750 with the AE410, and I like the Shuttle 9.0 with the AE212. The RH750 with the AE212 gets a little too soft, or "saggy" for me. I've been using the WTX-500 with my AE210 at practice, it it's a great match. The WTX-500 is not as tight as the Shuttle, but still is pretty clean. I don't care for the frequency center of the bass control on the WTX-500 ... it's too low, so it gets mushy/boomy with any significant increase in gain over noon.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Passinwind

Most people I 've discussed it with perceive it as a form of compression.

Here's one take from a pretty reputable source.

Good read, thanks for that link, Charlie. Sounds plausible. But he's saying it only happens with class AB amps. So that would rule out class D amps for sagging, too? The Micro VR and LMII are both class AB...I wonder how much that has to do with the sag. Maybe it's why I like them. Don't know...haven't owned a class D micro except the Crate Power Block, and its THD is super high so it's not useful for this discussion.

[1n3]

I assumed "saggy" referred to power supply sag, where during high power demands/transients, the supply voltage drops momentarily because it's not capable of producing full voltage.

I have a guitarist friend for whom the rectifier tube is the most important tube in the amp. He wants PS sag on attack; it's similar to compression, as Passinwind says. He swaps rectifier tubes the way some guys swap signal tubes.

[Passinwind]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Good read, thanks for that link, Charlie. Sounds plausible. But he's saying it only happens with class AB amps. So that would rule out class D amps for sagging, too? The Micro VR and LMII are both class AB...I wonder how much that has to do with the sag. Maybe it's why I like them. Don't know...haven't owned a class D micro except the Crate Power Block, and its THD is super high so it's not useful for this discussion.

I'm pretty sure Randall Aiken wrote that article well before the popular advent of Class D amps, and of course he was only really talking about tube amps anyway.

[4-string]

I am one of those who really hate that tube feel in an amp, and I can't say that I find the TC RH750 saggy at all. Not quite as quick as my Ashdown MK-500, but it doesn't feel floppy either.

The Spectracomp does a pretty good job mimicing that feel for those who want it, especially with a dash tubetone mixed in. I'm not crazy about either feature though, and use both sparingly.

I also had the GK MB115 combo for a while, it surely felt tight enough.

I'm easy to please though.

[staindbass]

i like the limiter in the ampeg micro. here and there it sags too much. (by sag i mean once in awhile it compresses too much, making the note momentarily quieter than the others) but i would rather have the sag once in awhile than the un-eveness of the amp with no limiter/compressor at all.

[mongo2]

Originally Posted by 1n3

I assumed "saggy" referred to power supply sag, where during high power demands/transients, the supply voltage drops momentarily because it's not capable of producing full voltage.

+1

[craig.p]

Originally Posted by Jeff Scott

If the tone is there, I think I need to find a Dual Showman amp as that is designed to run 4Ω.

Jeff, look for an AC568, an AA769, or an AA270. All three are spec'd for a four ohm load.

[JimmyM]

Well so far it looks like it's split down the middle between those who pick up on the sag and those who don't. Nice! And thanks for not turning it into tube vs ss yet

[iiipopes]

I am really impressed with the tone and presence of my Carvin MB12. It's not "saggy" in the slightest. It's great by itself for practice, rehearsal, small gigs, etc., and only needs a 1X15 to get the extension needed for larger gigs.

[4Mal]

My old EA Micro 300 would compress when it hit the limits. I've never felt that with my MB2-500. That thing is clean, clear and punchy up as far as I'm willing to go loud. It never has the softer feel of my WT800 and there is no way to get the WT800 to do what the GK does. Which IMO makes them complimentary and very good stable mates. I find myself needing the WT thing less and less though. When I do, theret is always the U5 and it's filters to turn to... There will come a day when the WT has it's last gig with me.

[wcriley]

Originally Posted by 1n3

I assumed "saggy" referred to power supply sag, where during high power demands/transients, the supply voltage drops momentarily because it's not capable of producing full voltage.

I have a guitarist friend for whom the rectifier tube is the most important tube in the amp. He wants PS sag on attack; it's similar to compression, as Passinwind says. He swaps rectifier tubes the way some guys swap signal tubes.

Yep, that's my definition of "sag", too.
Great for skinny-string guitar, but I absolutely hate it for bass guitar.
The worst amp I ever played bass through was a blackface Bassman with a tube rectifier. Seemed like every note I played had a delay before blooming to full volume. Absolutely no attack.