Is a mid-scooped tone such a bad thing?

[AMp'D.2play]

Just wondering ... when many folks describe the tone of the Aguilar GS cabs, "mid-scooped" usually enters the discussion. Usually, it's not in a flattering manner, i.e., "great cab, but there's a mid-scoop".

The GS series (I own 2 GS112 cabs, btw), have stood the test of time as one of the more popular cabs out there. They still get a lot of love even though there're some really nice options out there, especially in the 12" market.

OTOH, many amp companies like Markbass (VPF), SWR (aural enhancer), Traynor (scoop), Genz Shuttles (shape, or whatever it's called), etc., have a scoop feature as part of its EQ where more scoop can be dialed in.

I guess what has piqued my curiosity is, if mid-scoop is considered a "weakness" in, say, the GS cabs, why does this feature seem to be included in a lot of amps' EQs?

I remember thinking when doing pre-purchase research that the GS cabs must be the most popular cabs that nobody likes.

[MarTONEbass]

In a busy mix, a mid-scoop can be seen as a bad thing because some of those frequencies are perceived as louder than others to the human ear. Those are the frequencies that help you punch through ad be heard in a busy mix without excessive volume.

I think many companies put that feature on their heads because a mid-scoop is a characteristic of many players' slap tones. I think you can get a good slap tone AND good mid content at the same time, but others disagree.

It's a weakness to some, but others, like myself, like a nice rich midrange tone.

BTW, even though your GS cabs may be mid-scooped, you might be able to EQ in some nice mids if that is what you are after. I think it is harder to dial the mids out of mid-forward cabs like the DB series. IME of course.

[Windreaper]

In my experience, mid-scoop sounds good solo but gets lost in the mix. It is a feature you might want in an amp but would not necessarily like in a cab, imo ymmv. Easier to dial in/out that way.

[bobalu]

As MarTONE mentioned above, mid-scoop is desirable for slapping. Also, and generally speaking, in a "live" full band setting, you will be lost in the mix with mid scooping, so you boost your mids to be heard. However, in a more "intimate" setting, so to speak, like a small jazz combo or acoustic setting, scooped mids sound wonderful. Just sharing my own experience here, so ymmv.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by bobalu

As MarTONE mentioned above, mid-scoop is desirable for slapping. Also, and generally speaking, in a "live" full band setting, you will be lost in the mix with mid scooping, so you boost your mids to be heard. However, in a more "intimate" setting, so to speak, like a small jazz combo or acoustic setting, scooped mids sound wonderful. Just sharing my own experience here, so ymmv.

This is, IMO, one of the most misunderstood and problematic things in getting a good bass tone 'slap' or otherwise.

Most of the enhance circuits cut low mids and mid mids.... JUST the frequencies you don't want to cut for a good slap tone (or any tone). If you are relatively proficient in slapping, you realize that there should NEVER be a reason to turn any knobs or EQ when going from fingerstyle to slap.

The 'scoop' that most expert slappers use is a very narrow band scoop in the upper mids (that sort of 1K centered 'gank' region that can make a slap tone sound a bit harsh and clacky). This has limited impact on most fingerstyle tones (unless you are a 'rock distortion/grind' guy). That is one of the reasons why many slappers gravitate toward 410 with tweeter cabs... there is typically a natural 'scoop' in the upper mids (i.e., a combination of the drivers not extended up nearly to the point where the tweeter kicks in, and also some midrange interference with the drivers that further attenuates the upper midrange a bit).

The problem with the enhance controls is they typically suck the important mids out of the mix... typically bad.'

HOWEVER, it is all about the mix and match. With Eden, for example, the original XLT cabs were VERY mid mid voiced, and a little enhance actually flattened those cabs out.

On the other end of the spectrum, the dip in the lower mids of the GS112, which can sound horrible with some heads IMO, can match up nicely with more mid voiced heads, etc.

IMO!

[Warrior_Bass]

Originally Posted by MarTONEbass

BTW, even though your GS cabs may be mid-scooped, you might be able to EQ in some nice mids if that is what you are after. I think it is harder to dial the mids out of mid-forward cabs like the DB series. IME of course.

This would seem counter-intuitive but it has been my experience as well.

To the OP, I think scooping is not always a bad thing. It seems like a majority of TBers prefer to use the presence of mids to define their tone, perhaps indicating a certain preference to style. I believe there are contexts that scooping is very appropriate, such as a very busy, complex mix where you want to lay down the fundamental, have a bit of sheen to round off your tone, and leave the mids to the rest of the band. Cutting through the mix isn't everybody's goal (not mine, at least).

[diechris]

I think its all on the context... too much mids... in the wrong setting can sound really bad.. however... take an 80s thraash metal band.. the guitars seem to have lots of mids.. so a scooped tone might help fill the over all tone... then again take newer metal with the mids scooped and you might need to bump the mids to be heard.

[JP Morin]

IMO it depends where you want to sit in the mix,
if you want definition and be heard and play lot of melody that cut through guit and keys, you may want some mids
Or if you want just your bass to be feeled, not so present, to enhance just the bottom and attack or be more percussive like a bass drum would be may be a little mid scoop may do it for you (think Korn's firsts album style)...

It all depends on the style and the sonic space other instruments takes in your band... The tone of one or 2 guitar or keys and other instruments would influence a lot the way I set my sound...

[4-string]

I think Ken nails it. I never use different eq settings going between slap and fingerstyle, there's no need to.

Since I got my Barefaced Big Twin I cut a tad in the upper mids, exactly where I used to boost with 4x10 or 6x10 cabs.

Mid scoop isn't inherently any more wrong than "flat" eq is right.

[Russell L]

Had a guy come to the blues jam last night and wanted to sit in on bass. So, he got his out and I helped him find his tone by turning knobs on my Little Mark III head while he played some notes. He wanted it sounding kinda thin, I thought. But, when I went out front he sounded really good in the mix. Excellent, as a matter of fact. I had to try it that way when I went back up and it worked better than what I was doing before, which was with just a bare hair of cut in the mids, I mean just a tad.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Russell L

Had a guy come to the blues jam last night and wanted to sit in on bass. So, he got his out and I helped him find his tone by turning knobs on my Little Mark III head while he played some notes. He wanted it sounding kinda thin, I thought. But, when I went out front he sounded really good in the mix. Excellent, as a matter of fact. I had to try it that way when I went back up and it worked better than what I was doing before, which was with just a bare hair of cut in the mids, I mean just a tad.

+1 Pretty much the only knob I ever turned on my LMII was the upper mid control, cutting that ganky upper mid clack on some cabs, and dialing in a bit more grind with others, depending on what was happening with the top end of the drivers in various cabs.

That upper mid control on the Markbass heads is just the PERFECT center point (800hz), and Q (I believe 1/2 octave) to tame the gank or add the grind with limited impact on the balls for you tone. Same with the F1.

[BurningSkies]

Why are we comparing cabs to amp heads?

Apples and oranges. The neat thing about amp heads is that you can dial in and out that mid scoop...unless you've got a magic cab, you can't dial in or out a tone profile on it.

I'd rather have a cab that's fairly close to a neutral setting so I don't have to make up for its baked in frequency response curve with some form of extreme EQing because some manufacturer decided that everyone who uses their cab should be standing in a mid-hole to start with.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by BurningSkies

Why are we comparing cabs to amp heads?

Apples and oranges. The neat thing about amp heads is that you can dial in and out that mid scoop...unless you've got a magic cab, you can't dial in or out a tone profile on it.

I'd rather have a cab that's fairly close to a neutral setting so I don't have to make up for its baked in frequency response curve with some form of extreme EQing because some manufacturer decided that everyone who uses their cab should be standing in a mid-hole to start with.

It is all about the mix and match. It is all about IMO matching the EQ capability and overall voicing of a head to the voicing of a cab (none of which are particularly flat).

IMO, bass amplification is best thought of as an entire system, and everything works together. With the EQ capability of the vast majority of all in one bass heads, it would be very hard to muscle a cab with an inherent voicing you don't dig into something you did. Better to take everything into account when building a rig.

And, as stated above, remember that a 'relatively neutral' voicing is just one of an infinite number of EQ curves. It is a 'specail' EQ curve with programmed music, but not so much with bass backline amplification. Dialing in the 'tone in your head' can be a tough task with some cabs, regardless of voicing, and dialing out peaks you don't like with others can be trivially easy. Just depends on the mix and match.

[groove pump]

Originally Posted by Russell L

Had a guy come to the blues jam last night and wanted to sit in on bass. So, he got his out and I helped him find his tone by turning knobs on my Little Mark III head while he played some notes. He wanted it sounding kinda thin, I thought. But, when I went out front he sounded really good in the mix. Excellent, as a matter of fact. I had to try it that way when I went back up and it worked better than what I was doing before, which was with just a bare hair of cut in the mids, I mean just a tad.

Any idea what frequency center you were shaving with that eq setting? I'm on a bit of a search these days for a parametric eq because the preamp I use has only bass/mid/treble knobs. As far as I can tell though, there's a world of difference between eq'ing in the 300-400Hz range and the 700-800Hz neighborhood.

While my passive Jazz has a big, fat low end, I need to "up" my mid control (I think mine is around the 300Hz mark) and drop the bass eq to around 10 o'clock. That bass is "inherently scooped", in part because of its DiMarzio Ultra Jazz pickups. My active P/J is the other way around though, and I'll run the mid and treble at no higher than 11 o'clock with the bass at noon on my pre. Apples, oranges, and electricity I guess...

I'd say that "mid-scooped" can be a good thing if it's the higher mids that are being attenuated. To my ears, those can carry a lot of harshness if they're overcooked. Those lower mids seem to be the ones that can deliver boldness in a tone without being offensive.

[chuck3]

Had a jazz gig Sunday night for which I use an EBMM Sterling fretless. I love the bass but its tone has always struck me has having too much high-mids in it. Practicing beforehand, I used the mid-scoop button on the Genz-Benz Shuttle, and thought it improved the tone. However, after playing one tune at the gig, I turned the mid-scoop off. Playing with other instruments, I did not cut through enough without increasing the volume which resulted in too much low end, kind of boomy. So I agree with whomever said above that the mid-scoop may sound better solo, not so much with others.

[will33]

As long as it sits in the mix well, it's fine, whatever the tone profile is. I think a lot of people just overdo it because it sounds good soloed.

@ RussellL- yeah, I've found that what sounds a little bit midrangey or shy in the bass to the player usually sits quite nicely out in the audience.

[tdub0199]

As many others have said.... Midscooped is great when playing alone but in a band setting it may not cut through the mix very well.....

[greenboy]

Depending on definition there's at least three octave of midrange. Are we talking about heavily cutting that entire three octaves? Or are we talking about selectively voicing a smaller portion of that three octaves?

That's rhetorical. As always, the details are what matters.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by greenboy

Depending on definition there's at least three octave of midrange. Are we talking about heavily cutting that entire three octaves? Or are we talking about selectively voicing a smaller portion of that three octaves?

That's rhetorical. As always, the details are what matters.

If you read the posts in this thread, that is what the discussion is about... which midrange are you talking about. So, +1.

[Muckaluck]

I think much of it is a marketing ploy. I think it's included in many amp EQs so that the sales guy at the store can push it in and let the buyer hear that preferred sound. As an amp manufacturer you have to move product off the floor, and if what sounds good in a mix doesn't sound good in the store, you're not gonna move half as much product.