Might Need An Amp Suggestion For Live Use With PA Support

PolkaHero · #1 05-17-2010, 09:21 PM

At our last gig, my bandleader says that my stage volume is louder than what is coming out of our PA system. For the record, we are running a JBL VRX system (basically concert sound quality) with two 18 subs on either side of the stage. I'm running my Ampeg SVT-VR (USA model) through the bandleader's SVT 810e cabinet (Vietnam model). I'm having a hard time getting a nice punchy tone out of this setup so I compensate by turning the amp up so I can hear myself better on stage. This also causes my sound to leak into some of the vocal/horn mikes. Isn't the point of a 810 setup so you can hear yourself better because the speakers are higher?

I've heard comments about how the Vietnam Ampeg 810s are muffled sounding, so next week I'm going to bring my Bergantino NV610 to the gig and see if that sounds better. If that doesn't work, I might be looking at getting a combo amp that I can place on a speaker stand and tilt up towards me so I don't have to turn up so much. I could just get a cabinet, but I wouldn't know where to place my SVT-VR when the cabinet is angled.

Does anyone have any comments/recommendations on what I could do to remedy this situation? Do you think the Berg will make much difference? Even if it does, I'm not crazy about hauling it to every gig as the bandleader's Ampeg always resides in our trailer. Thanks!

JimmyM · #2 05-17-2010, 09:38 PM

nope, not the vietnamese 810e's...the bad years started in like 2000 and went on until loud moved to vietnam. those viet cabs are actually pretty sweet.

but there ain't a thing wrong with that berg, either. you could try it. however, i see that as more of a lateral move since they have similar voicings.

to answer your question, more info needed...bass, types of music played, settings on your amp, all that. svt's can be a bit muddy with all controls at noon.

but one thing i'd do if i were you is put both subs on one side of the stage or the other. unless you've got a wavelength between them for their lowest frequency (i always forget how far apart that is, but i think it's in the 30-35 ft. range), it can cause cancellation zones where your bass disappears but comes back too strong a few feet away. the best placement is in the middle, but if there's no room in the middle, one side or the other works best to keep cancellations at a minimum.

PolkaHero · #3 05-17-2010, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

nope, not the vietnamese 810e's...the bad years started in like 2000 and went on until loud moved to vietnam. those viet cabs are actually pretty sweet.

but there ain't a thing wrong with that berg, either. you could try it. however, i see that as more of a lateral move since they have similar voicings.

to answer your question, more info needed...bass, types of music played, settings on your amp, all that. svt's can be a bit muddy with all controls at noon.

but one thing i'd do if i were you is put both subs on one side of the stage or the other. unless you've got a wavelength between them for their lowest frequency (i always forget how far apart that is, but i think it's in the 30-35 ft. range), it can cause cancellation zones where your bass disappears but comes back too strong a few feet away. the best placement is in the middle, but if there's no room in the middle, one side or the other works best to keep cancellations at a minimum.

Hi Jimmy,

I'm usually playing my Fender Roscoe Beck IV with both pickups on full in single-coil mode, like a regular Jazz Bass. I usually set the SVT-VR pretty flat, sometimes the bass and treble boosted to 2 o'clock position. We play all styles from country to funk to rock to polkas.

Funny you would say that about the 810s as I own a 810AV cabinet (USA model) from around 2006 and I've never thought it ever sounded "muddy" in a band context. Unfortunately, that cabinet is stored on another trailer (different band!).

It isn't possible to place both sets of subs on one side of the stage as the sub cabinets serve as "stands" for the main speakers (see the pic below).

Hopefully the Berg does the trick; I don't really have a problem lugging it around, much easier than the Ampeg!

JimmyM · #4 05-17-2010, 10:56 PM

2006 is a transition year and i don't know the exact year they went to the better speakers. so it's entirely possible that your two cabs have the same speakers.

as for setting the svt flat, i don't think that works so well. bass gear mag did a report on a 74 svt, very similar to the vr, that shows it having a big low mid hump and gradually tapering off as it goes up the frequency scale. adding treble is probably a good idea. and boosting mids at 800 hz always helps me flatten out the response to where i can hear the notes more clearly at lower volumes. might want to try that next time as well.

rpsands · #5 05-18-2010, 09:57 AM

Get a standalone stand for the other side. It's bad news to spread your subs out.

Also, controlling stage volume is everyone's job. If everyone is so loud you can't hear yourself, and you turn up, that hurts - but it doesn't address the cause, which is other guys being so loud you can't hear yourself.

I would suggest you have everyone go a gig or two with just monitors and bass coming out of subs to assist (for you). That changed my whole perspective on sound

PolkaHero · #6 05-18-2010, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpsands

Get a standalone stand for the other side. It's bad news to spread your subs out.

Also, controlling stage volume is everyone's job. If everyone is so loud you can't hear yourself, and you turn up, that hurts - but it doesn't address the cause, which is other guys being so loud you can't hear yourself.

I would suggest you have everyone go a gig or two with just monitors and bass coming out of subs to assist (for you). That changed my whole perspective on sound

I doubt I can get my bandleader to change our PA setup, but I'll ask.

We've talked about getting those plexiglass shields for the drums as our drummer hits pretty hard. Basically everyone sets their stage volume off of him, so that's part of the problem.

Can you clarify your last statement? Not sure what you mean by monitors and bass coming out of subs.

rpsands · #7 05-18-2010, 10:27 AM

When you use monitors for bass the subs will fill in a lot of the missing lows since they're omnidirectional. Least, that's been my experience

This site seems to explain a lot of the bass placement issues very well:
http://www.astralsound.com/bass_pattern.htm

The pictures at the bottom are worth a thousand words

billfitzmaurice · #8 05-18-2010, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PolkaHero

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It isn't possible to place both sets of subs on one side of the stage as the sub cabinets serve as "stands" for the main speakers (see the pic below).

Cluster and wall load the subs, pole mount the mains. Doing it as you are is the worst possible way to set up a PA. The fact that whoever is running your sound isn't aware of that fact doesn't speak well for their level of expertise, and that's probably got a lot to do with the problems you're having. Said soundman is in serious need of some book learnin'.

PolkaHero · #9 05-18-2010, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

Cluster and wall load the subs, pole mount the mains. Doing it as you are is the worst possible way to set up a PA. The fact that whoever is running your sound isn't aware of that fact doesn't speak well for their level of expertise, and that's probably got a lot to do with the problems you're having. Said soundman is in serious need of some book learnin'.

We don't have a soundman. Our bandleader runs our 32-channel Allen & Heath mixing board from on stage.