Mini 0r Micro Amps.... I Must Be Missing Something?

[agedhorse]

Originally Posted by fdeck

If nothing else, the amount of space on the front panel for knobs dictates a different approach to preamp design. That's actually one thing I like about the micro heads: The designer really has to think about which controls will provide the most functionality and impact.

Absolutely true. There's nowhere near the margin for throwing things in there that there is in a bigger box. Form follows function.

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by vin*tone

When people compare micros to lead sleds they often say that the older AB amps have more "heft", "girth", "weight" ....etc than their micro counterparts. eg Aguilar TH500 vs DB750, GK 700RB vs MB 500. What are we hearing feeling here? Is this an EQ thing? ... burst power thing?.... or a combination of both?

One of the things that kept me searching for the right amp for years, was a desire for more "girth".

In decades of owning and sampling Class AB amps, I never heard it in the right balance with other things I wanted to hear, like a tubey "give" to the power stage, the ability to get really loud and low without premature breakup, and a sweet, silky, extended top end.

My first entry into micros, came because I finally heard that mixture of qualities in the Genz Streamliner.

I've since moved on because it turned out to be too much of a good thing for me, but still, it was the tone that drew me first, far more than the portability.

[B String]

Originally Posted by KJung

I know! I ended up feeling crappy enough toward the end of NAMM last year that we didn't really get to hang enough. Have fun. Maybe next year!

I want to hear what wonders Carey Nordstrand has in his booth this year.

And, will you just stop pussyfooting around and go to the TecAmp booth and get an endorsement deal for the Puma900 already!

Carey has some pretty exciting pickups coming out. I might even defile my Tyler with a blade pickup he just finished. Maybe! I love that Tyler.

And yes, I think the time has come for the Puma. I totally like the F500 and the Puma seems like a better, more versatile version of that.
Damn you Ken! You just HAVE to make me spend money!

[LiquidMidnight]

Originally Posted by KJung

Again, if your premise was true, all those big front of house systems we all play through would not be driven virtually 100% now by class D / SMPS amps!

I still see a lot of heavy lead driving FOH systems; albeit, those are more prevalent for house systems that don't have to be moved.

My lead sled QSC RMX850 has a discernable bigger and tighter low-end than my light weight PLX1602.

With that said, I do own two micro amps (Carvin BX250 and Ampeg Micro-VR) that I dig very much.

[Jeff Scott]

Originally Posted by fdeck

If nothing else, the amount of space on the front panel for knobs dictates a different approach to preamp design. That's actually one thing I like about the micro heads: The designer really has to think about which controls will provide the most functionality and impact.

That is one of the things I love about the Tone Hammer 500, it has everything one really needs and nothing you don't.

[agedhorse]

Originally Posted by LiquidMidnight

I still see a lot of heavy lead driving FOH systems; albeit, those are more prevalent for house systems that don't have to be moved.

I still work in the pro touring industry and I haven't seen much of anything heavy in several years. SMPS and/or class D (or TD) represent probably >95% of what I see out there (except at the bottom feeder level where they can't afford to upgrade and buy the tons of boat anchors that are now available for pennies on the dollar).

Used to be that there were a lot of heavier amps in house installs, but that too has been changing pretty quickly. Partly because it's difficult these days to buy a larger pro amp that is not SMPS and/or class D, and when a house system does a significant upgrade, amps often go along with it.

[lokikallas]

I upgraded my pro3 to a pro7. Pro 7 better in every way. I don't want to deal with outboard pre. I want I all in a 2 u package.

[seamonkey]

Besides the weight, there's also less current draw, less wasted heat.

Some are lucky and never ran into problems, but just powering on some of old designed line frequency power supplies without soft-start would dim the lights, and by the third set it would be the time you're likely to trip a breaker lost in some backroom behind a locked door.

Heat is just wasted energy, and with these amps there is just less of it. When it all adds up, like with FOH, there's less heat and less cooling needed. Much less overall current draw with much more loudness.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by agedhorse

Note that the preamp on the GBE-1200/750 is not the same as the preamp on the Shuttle's or ShuttleMax's, therefore they do not sound the same.

If you eliminate the difference in the preamps by using the identical preamp, the tonal differences are slight to inaudable.

Fair enough Andy, but I must remind everyone on here that "differences" isn't always used as a negative. Sometimes differences can be positive. I think the micros do have positive differences, and not just weight. There's something about them that appeals to me as a tube amp lover that never quite hit me with regular solid state. I don't think that's a bad thing

[Mastermold]

Originally Posted by agedhorse

Ken had the opportunity last year at NAMM to play around with a variety of our amps side by side, so he has a little bit of an unfair advantage here. 3 amps all with the same power amp section and they all sounded different. It certainly wasn't because of the power amp. Also, the same preamp with 2 different power amps and they sounded the same (within the limits of their respective power ratings of course).

Now Ken also mentioned something that I think deserves a little more discussion. It's assumed that the fundamental is responsible for the majority of the sound as well as the way the eq works. In fact, especially at lower frequencies there is more harmonics than there is fundamental, so the designer's choice of eq and voicing elements will sound different with different basses and with different notes depending on the realtive distribution of harmonics across the scale. This is one reason why one particular amp might be a better choice with a particular type of bass than another, just a happier mix of spices in the gumbo for a particular player or style.

There were two amps I fell in love with at last year's NAMM--your Streamliner 900 and Ampeg's Heritage SVT-CL. The solution was obvious, I bought both!

[agedhorse]

Originally Posted by Mastermold

There were two amps I fell in love with at last year's NAMM--your Streamliner 900 and Ampeg's Heritage SVT-CL. The solution was obvious, I bought both!

I don't see any problem with doing the... "obvious"

[joelb79]

Originally Posted by LiquidMidnight

I still see a lot of heavy lead driving FOH systems; albeit, those are more prevalent for house systems that don't have to be moved.

My lead sled QSC RMX850 has a discernable bigger and tighter low-end than my light weight PLX1602.

I can +1 to both the RMX850 comment and the heavy lead driving installed systems. I see that a lot.

And RMX850 bridged into a Community 15 trap always sounds louder than my 15/6/1 with a PF-500. I know this for a fact as that has been my drummers monitor for 6 months in a house system at a jam I've played at, and I've struggled to get even an Epifani UL410 over the volume of that trap+RMX850. The big lead driving the JBL SRX218's at this gig are Macrotech 3600's each bridged. I cant hear my own rig over that combination of gear at all. I know a better sound guy would help out, but at some of these gigs we deal with what we're given at times.

People say I play loud, I'm just trying to cut through all that madness; not necessarily add low end to it but have midrange cut. The 15/6/1 has gotten closer than the UL410 but my PF-500 amp is not hot enough for that gig. Good thing I've stopped playing there recently.

[Munjibunga]

Originally Posted by joelb79

I can +1 to both the RMX850 comment and the heavy lead driving installed systems. I see that a lot.

And RMX850 bridged into a Community 15 trap always sounds louder than my 15/6/1 with a PF-500. I know this for a fact as that has been my drummers monitor for 6 months in a house system at a jam I've played at, and I've struggled to get even an Epifani UL410 over the volume of that trap+RMX850. The big lead driving the JBL SRX218's at this gig are Macrotech 3600's each bridged. I cant hear my own rig over that combination of gear at all. I know a better sound guy would help out, but at some of these gigs we deal with what we're given at times.

People say I play loud, I'm just trying to cut through all that madness; not necessarily add low end to it but have midrange cut. The 15/6/1 has gotten closer than the UL410 but my PF-500 amp is not hot enough for that gig. Good thing I've stopped playing there recently.

-1 on RMX and PLX. I drove each of my EAW SBX-220s with a PLX 2402 bridged. I've never gotten that much bottom out of any other sub with any other amp. There was no shortage of thump.

[joelb79]

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

-1 on RMX and PLX. I drove each of my EAW SBX-220s with a PLX 2402 bridged. I've never gotten that much bottom out of any other sub with any other amp. There was no shortage of thump.

a 2402 is different than a 1602. The RMX850 won't compete with the 2402 but an RMX24250 would be more competitive. Have you compared similar QSC's like that?

I'm partial to the I-Tech series for live due to the built in BBS DSP. I always find a properly tweaked I-Tech to trounce just about everything as long as the speakers can keep up. Sadly I only have experience with JBL speakers on the other side of I-Techs; and those speakers needed the power.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by joelb79

I can +1 to both the RMX850 comment and the heavy lead driving installed systems. I see that a lot.

Per Andy's (Agedhorse's) post, I too still see some old school heavy PA amps installed in some local clubs. They are mostly old systems in clubs. Given that there would be no advantage other than weight and size to replace those installed units, it makes sense to just leave them alone. They would not lose anything by replacing with newer, lighterweight and higher power units, but in those settings, they would gain very little also.


It is also one of the reasons that backline rental companies will still mostly provide SWR900's, GK800's, and Eden WT800's and full weight 410's. Most of those companies are working with tight margins and declining business, and will use stuff until it craps out. Nothing wrong with that, and a good player can make anything work as backline when you have front of house.

IMO and IME!

[fdeck]

Those amps are the highly coveted Class-P, which stands for "Paid For."

[KJung]

Originally Posted by fdeck

Those amps are the highly coveted Class-P, which stands for "Paid For."

EXACTLY

[Jarrett]

Fun and educational thread. I'm waiting for yet another micro to show up via UPS today.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by KJung

It is also one of the reasons that backline rental companies will still mostly provide SWR900's, GK800's, and Eden WT800's and full weight 410's. Most of those companies are working with tight margins and declining business, and will use stuff until it craps out. Nothing wrong with that, and a good player can make anything work as backline when you have front of house.

IMO and IME!

While true that margins are tight, I've spoken to a lot of backline providers about micros, and every single one of them have told me that nobody ever requests them as backline. Didn't make sense to me at first, but then I realized that most people who use micros will take them with them on fly dates and just use a provided cab. But nobody's asking for them, otherwise the bigger backline companies would have them.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

While true that margins are tight, I've spoken to a lot of backline providers about micros, and every single one of them have told me that nobody ever requests them as backline. Didn't make sense to me at first, but then I realized that most people who use micros will take them with them on fly dates and just use a provided cab. But nobody's asking for them, otherwise the bigger backline companies would have them.

+1 Many players use the provided cab and just bring their own micro's with them. I've done this on occasion.