Mini 0r Micro Amps.... I Must Be Missing Something?

[agedhorse]

Originally Posted by jnewmark

My ride, too, Chef ! Great minds think alike !

Mine too, does that qualify my for the great mind club?

[Chef]

Ab-so-tively.

[Russell L]

Where on the knobs do you find the tight and fat sounds ya'll are talking about on a Little Mark III. I get some good sounds, some fat. Tight? I dunno, I guess. Problem for me is the 360Hz low mid control and the 40Hz of the low control. Sometimes it sounds a bit too deep. But, when I roll the lows off I can't boost, say, 150, for instance. I want an eq pedal, I think. Or, it's time for another head, maybe. However, I know the cabs will play an important roll in the sound as well.

[B String]

Originally Posted by KJung

There are even fewer things as fun as spending multiple people's money

meh!

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Russell L

Where on the knobs do you find the tight and fat sounds ya'll are talking about on a Little Mark III. I get some good sounds, some fat. Tight? I dunno, I guess. Problem for me is the 360Hz low mid control and the 40Hz of the low control. Sometimes it sounds a bit too deep. But, when I roll the lows off I can't boost, say, 150, for instance. I want an eq pedal, I think. Or, it's time for another head, maybe. However, I know the cabs will play an important roll in the sound as well.

Kind of what I was saying Not that tightness means a whole lot to me, though...

[Russell L]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Kind of what I was saying Not that tightness means a whole lot to me, though...

Yes, it's hard to describe this stuff. It's like asking different folks what color the note F is. (Red, of courseright? lol).

[arai]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

but then I realized that most people who use micros will take them with them on fly dates and just use a provided cab.

Originally Posted by KJung

+1 Many players use the provided cab and just bring their own micro's with them. I've done this on occasion.

I do this too. As stupid as a micro looks on an 8x10

[joelb79]

Originally Posted by Russell L

Where on the knobs do you find the tight and fat sounds ya'll are talking about on a Little Mark III. I get some good sounds, some fat. Tight? I dunno, I guess. Problem for me is the 360Hz low mid control and the 40Hz of the low control. Sometimes it sounds a bit too deep. But, when I roll the lows off I can't boost, say, 150, for instance. I want an eq pedal, I think. Or, it's time for another head, maybe. However, I know the cabs will play an important roll in the sound as well.

Sure. Here is how. Roll the lows off to about 10-11 o'clock, then put the VLE at 9-11 o'clock until your 150-250 region is boosted (Basically by cutting everything but that freq). Then boost the upper mid or treble to add back the bite you desire, probably a combination of both. I think that about does the tight and fat thing on that Markbass preamp. But its been a few months since i've run my LMII because it's dead. I plan to have the resurrection party of it soon.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Russell L

Where on the knobs do you find the tight and fat sounds ya'll are talking about on a Little Mark III. I get some good sounds, some fat. Tight? I dunno, I guess. Problem for me is the 360Hz low mid control and the 40Hz of the low control. Sometimes it sounds a bit too deep. But, when I roll the lows off I can't boost, say, 150, for instance. I want an eq pedal, I think. Or, it's time for another head, maybe. However, I know the cabs will play an important roll in the sound as well.

+1 to Joel's post, although that might or might not get you there. The ONLY nit pick I have with the LM line of amps is the voicing of that low mid control. Of course, if you have a cab that has a lot of nice low mid range voiced into the cab, with good control of the deep bass (like the AE410 for example, or the Aguilar DB cabs), then the LMII/III sounds tight and fat and punchy right out of the box. However, if you have a cab that is a bit, well, looser down low, it is hard to 'fix that' without a semi-parametric mid control or a well voiced low mid control like, for example, the TecAmp Puma (which has the same basic front end as the LMII/III, but moves the center point of the low mid control down where it should be).

It is all about the mix and match with a cab versus the voicing and EQ design of the amp. With an amp like the Genz Max 9.2, there is enough EQ power and low end control to make any cab sound tight and fat and powerful and immediate. With the LMII/III, IMO and IME it always sounds good with virtually any cab, but if you want that very tight, round, immediate sounding low end, that head can benefit from a cab choice that kind of 'gets you halfway there' in its voicing. IMO and IME.

I solved my 'love of Markbass tone and hate of their fixed low mid control' but moving to the F500, which has somewhat similar tone to the LMII/III, but two bands of semi-parametric midrange, and a slightly tighter low end voicing in general.

[Russell L]

Thanks, Joel and Ken. I have done the settings just like that with good results, more or less. The problem may be in my cabs, dunno. I have two Markbass 151P cabs. Not the deepest sounding of what's out there, but not bad. They can talk, though. I've run the LMIII through an SVT 810 and it was awesome, nothing lacking. I'd like to try it through some other cabs. I have also looked at a Momark system, as well as some leftover offerings on MF, like an SD800, for instance. I need a backup amp anyway, so I'm scratching my head for a little while before purchasing anything. Heck, might try a PF500, who knows?

[dincz]

I must admit I'm still not clear what "tight" actually means. From all that I've read in this thread I get the impression that what's being described is a combination of two different and unrelated characteristics - tone and dynamics.

If that really is the case, wouldn't it be clearer and more useful to describe these characteristics separately?

[bassgod76]

Originally Posted by Hobobob

Negative reviews and problem threads are far more common than positive ones. As a TB'er, which are you more likely to post about - an amp that you're generally pleased with, or an amp that took a crap on you three weeks after purchase?
The number of problems reported on a forum like TB is not really indicative of the actual number of problems in the real world.

Amen!

[KJung]

Originally Posted by dincz

I must admit I'm still not clear what "tight" actually means. From all that I've read in this thread I get the impression that what's being described is a combination of two different and unrelated characteristics - tone and dynamics.

If that really is the case, wouldn't it be clearer and more useful to describe these characteristics separately?

Probably better to just not think in those terms if they don't speak to you. I don't include 'dynamics' at all in my definition of tight, that is a different thing to me. It seems others in this thread are using the same term to describe dynamics alone. 'Tight' is a 'tone' definition to me.


The best example for me is if you ever have a chance to play a Ken Smith bass right next to a Jazz Bass, both with pickups dimed (A Peavey Cirrus or Sadowsky Modern works also... any bass with big soap bars stacked close to the bridge), you will hear that tonal difference of that big dose of upper bass relative to deep bass, which gives you that 'bap bap' immediacy of the note attack.

Amp and cab voicings are quite similar, and just like you can't make a Smith sound like a J and vice versa, it is sometimes hard to dial 'tightness' in and out of a rig, depending on inherent voicing and EQ control.

IMO. sometimes jargon is useful to some as a short hand for describing general performance, other times not

[AREA]

I can really dig the Thread Opener. I was also on the "Micro-Amp" Side for a While. Tried something from t.c., got the Ampeg PF500 (wich was best of the small Amps I've had) and the last Micro Amp I've tried, was the Eden WTX500. It felt everytime that they're lacking Headroom, with their small Poweramps, that were buildt in many of these little Tins, if you "push" them a bit..

I thought it could be a Solution for me, because I have to shuttle between 2 Reherasal Rooms during the Week.

My Conclusion is...I am done with them and I am very, very happy that I get back my GK700 RB-II today from the Guy I have sold it a Year ago. If it needs to be 11Kg to produce my Sound with enough Headroom, i'll carry it for sure.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by AREA

I can really dig the Thread Opener. I was also on the "Micro-Amp" Side for a While. Tried something from t.c., got the Ampeg PF500 (wich was best of the small Amps I've had) and the last Micro Amp I've tried, was the Eden WTX500. It felt everytime that they're lacking Headroom, with their small Poweramps, that were buildt in many of these little Tins, if you "push" them a bit..

I thought it could be a Solution for me, because I have to shuttle between 2 Reherasal Rooms during the Week.

My Conclusion is...I am done with them and I am very, very happy that I get back my GK700 RB-II today from the Guy I have sold it a Year ago. If it needs to be 11Kg to produce my Sound with enough Headroom, i'll carry it for sure.

The GK MB800 will BURY the GK700 RB-II FYI. Again, do not judge micro performance based on a couple of examples. The Eden Micro has very poor limiting and does not have the headroom and open tone that the wattage suggests. The PF500 is at the absolute low end of the micro category (it sounds very good for the price, but still.... ).

Edit: Of course, you still might prefer the 700RB tonally... no two amps sound alike. Nothing wrong with that.

[joelb79]

http://www.hificritic.com/downloads/Class-D.pdf

For people following this thread; I've done some more reading. I am convinced that the changes made to the signal coming through a Class-D circuit can be quantified, but most likely not measured using the standard ways that we measure amplifier output. But most certainly Class-D changes the signal; for better or for worse.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by joelb79

http://www.hificritic.com/downloads/Class-D.pdf

For people following this thread; I've done some more reading. I am convinced that the changes made to the signal coming through a Class-D circuit can be quantified, but most likely not measured using the standard ways that we measure amplifier output. But most certainly Class-D changes the signal; for better or for worse.

Hah. Those are the same guys that are convinced that a $1000 power cable is worth the money

Again, any difference in amp topography (other than power tubes pushed into distortion) is going to be completely, utterly overwhelmed by the impact of the preamp, hi passing, and the specific design used by the amp manufacturer when integrating the module into the amp (limiting, power management, etc., etc.)

I will again state that if you buy an amp because of the class of amp, your are fooling yourself, and if you don't buy an amp due to the class of amp, your are making a mistake (assuming you like the way it sounds)

[joelb79]

Originally Posted by KJung

Hah. Those are the same guys that are convinced that a $1000 power cable is worth the money

Again, any difference in amp topography (other than power tubes pushed into distortion) is going to be completely, utterly overwhelmed by the impact of the preamp, hi passing, and the specific design used by the amp manufacturer when integrating the module into the amp (limiting, power management, etc., etc.)

I will again state that if you buy an amp because of the class of amp, your are fooling yourself, and if you don't buy an amp due to the class of amp, your are making a mistake (assuming you like the way it sounds)

Well I've not heard a class-d I like yet.. so therefore; I'm speaking with my mind and ears here. Aside from your implementation considerations (which are good ideas to keep in mind) a class-d amplifier has to have several different protection circuits on it that people would say do effect the signal chain. One being the infamous protection which mutes the amplifier to protect the burning of output section; effectively muting your bass during the best parts of your performance. The second being that class-D amplifiers do not do pretty things electronically when driven into their peaks, requiring limiting circuitry to be built into the input part. That neat tricks about feeding back power into the circuit become the limitation of the amplifier at clipping, especially as the speaker loads we drive are reactive. There is no way to predict how every speaker will perform when designing your output section of the amp.

I'm not convinced I can hear the difference as much as feel a difference. Seriously. And as a musician who is trying to feel his music when he plays that sounds like a loosing scenario.

I'll have to find this $1000 power cable thing your laughing about. From the perspective of a guy who knows a thing about voltage/current, I could actually agree with him technically that a better power cable would be better; but not without investigating the mains power that cord is coming from. I bet you in most cases where $1000 of cable would make a difference, the mains cannot keep up anyways.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by joelb79

Well I've not heard a class-d I like yet.. so therefore; I'm speaking with my mind and ears here. Aside from your implementation considerations (which are good ideas to keep in mind) a class-d amplifier has to have several different protection circuits on it that people would say do effect the signal chain. One being the infamous protection which mutes the amplifier to protect the burning of output section; effectively muting your bass during the best parts of your performance. The second being that class-D amplifiers do not do pretty things electronically when driven into their peaks, requiring limiting circuitry to be built into the input part. That neat tricks about feeding back power into the circuit become the limitation of the amplifier at clipping, especially as the speaker loads we drive are reactive. There is no way to predict how every speaker will perform when designing your output section of the amp.

I'm not convinced I can hear the difference as much as feel a difference. Seriously. And as a musician who is trying to feel his music when he plays that sounds like a loosing scenario.

I'll have to find this $1000 power cable thing your laughing about. From the perspective of a guy who knows a thing about voltage/current, I could actually agree with him technically that a better power cable would be better; but not without investigating the mains power that cord is coming from. I bet you in most cases where $1000 of cable would make a difference, the mains cannot keep up anyways.

Believe what you want

Again, virtually every high end touring PA has been driven by class D power amps for quite some time now. You are worrying about the wrong things here.

[Smallequestrian]

Originally Posted by joelb79

Well I've not heard a class-d I like yet.. so therefore; I'm speaking with my mind and ears here. Aside from your implementation considerations (which are good ideas to keep in mind) a class-d amplifier has to have several different protection circuits on it that people would say do effect the signal chain. One being the infamous protection which mutes the amplifier to protect the burning of output section; effectively muting your bass during the best parts of your performance.

I'll have to find this $1000 power cable thing your laughing about. From the perspective of a guy who knows a thing about voltage/current, I could actually agree with him technically that a better power cable would be better; but not without investigating the mains power that cord is coming from. I bet you in most cases where $1000 of cable would make a difference, the mains cannot keep up anyways.

If one is constantly finding oneself in a situation where the amp is going into protect, some other kind of harsh limiting, or clipping, the problem isn't topology its simply a matter of not using an appropriate tool for the job. Either you speaker situation isn't efficient enough or amplifier doesn't have enough power.

And of course the $1000 power cable is ridiculous, there is the mile(s) of cable running through your house and miles running out to the substation. They sure aren't using $1000 a meter cable out to your house or inside it.