Mini 0r Micro Amps.... I Must Be Missing Something?

[phillybass101]

Hey Joel you mean you actually play gigs where they let you feel it? It has been a long time since I played a gig where I could actually feel the bass as well as hear it.

[Chef]

Dude:
Those cables aren't made from ''wire.''
They're made from Unicorn fur, shed in the Spring, gathered up by young Nubians, and knitted into cable.

It's a special process, and quite expensive.

Originally Posted by Smallequestrian

And of course the $1000 power cable is ridiculous, there is the mile(s) of cable running through your house and miles running out to the substation. They sure aren't using $1000 a meter cable out to your house or inside it.

[willsellout]

I've never met a lightweight amp that has really impressed me. I think that mostly has to do with the voicings of the ones I've tried rather than the type of power section it had.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by willsellout

I've never met a lightweight amp that has really impressed me. I think that mostly has to do with the voicings of the ones I've tried rather than the type of power section it had.

+1 in that all amps sound different. There is literally NOTHING in common tonally with my Glockenklang, my Aguilar, my Markbass heads, etc. NO one could pick any of them out as 'this is a certain amp topology.

To your point, I dislike as many class D amps as I do class A/B amps, and as many SMPS amps as traditional power supply amps. They all sound different.

All the amps I own have much different midrange distortion characteristics coming from the pre, massive difference in hi passing of the low end, massive difference in the extension and nature of the high end, etc., etc., etc. That's why I own three and not one... VERY different playing experiences with each one, and of course, no amount of knob twisting makes one sound like the other.

I would doubt that anyone could identify any of them as 'class D' in a blind listening test among various different amps.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Chef

Dude:
Those cables aren't made from ''wire.''
They're made from Unicorn fur, shed in the Spring, gathered up by young Nubians, and knitted into cable.

It's a special process, and quite expensive.

knitting is hard.

[Chef]

Dude, you don't even know.
Most Unicorns are short-haired.
*Try* and knit that, and see how far you get.

Definitely a skill.

[joelb79]

Originally Posted by Chef

Dude:
Those cables aren't made from wire.
They're made from Unicorn fur, shed in the Spring, gathered up by young Nubians, and knitted into cable.

Right! The $1000 replaces all the single strand 12/2 copper wire you plugged it into without a doubt! It's da Nubian technologies.

Originally Posted by KJung

Believe what you want

Again, virtually every high end touring PA has been driven by class D power amps for quite some time now. You are worrying about the wrong things here.

Those power amps you mention also cost thousands a piece and have much greater power than we can have at our price point. I'm not buying that we have the same amplifier technology in our micro amplifiers at all. I think that is a very mute point.

Originally Posted by Smallequestrian

If one is constantly finding oneself in a situation where the amp is going into protect, some other kind of harsh limiting, or clipping, the problem isn't topology its simply a matter of not using an appropriate tool for the job. Either you speaker situation isn't efficient enough or amplifier doesn't have enough power.

And of course the $1000 power cable is ridiculous, there is the mile(s) of cable running through your house and miles running out to the substation. They sure aren't using $1000 a meter cable out to your house or inside it.

That's what she said.

When I mentioned feel; I did mean feel what I'm playing in a metaphorical sense, although yes I get there in volume at at least one gig. The comments are right, my tool (amp) is inadequate.

I think I'll check out of this thread if something so subjective as an end user experience with power vs power is met with this much disdain. I just meant to share information, and not get into an argument about what I myself can and cannot detect.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by joelb79

Those power amps you mention also cost thousands a piece and have much greater power than we can have at our price point. I'm not buying that we have the same amplifier technology in our micro amplifiers at all. I think that is a very mute point.

Absolutely, completely disagree. First, there are very few bass cabs that can use more than 600-900 honestly rated watts.

Secondly, just like ANY amp topology, there are higher quality executions and lower quality executions. That is constant across price points, regardless of topology. I hope I'm getting SOMETHING for spending more on the Glock than an Ampeg PH500!

The primary limitation to 'feeling' the bass is, in order, speaker cabinet, hi passing setting, and absolute power rating relative to the cabinet capabilities and efficiency.

[willsellout]

Originally Posted by joelb79

When I mentioned feel; I did mean feel what I'm playing in a metaphorical sense, although yes I get there in volume at at least one gig. The comments are right, my tool (amp) is inadequate.

I think I'll check out of this thread if something so subjective as an end user experience with power vs power is met with this much disdain. I just meant to share information, and not get into an argument about what I myself can and cannot detect.

I understand this. I had a Streamliner 900 and switched to a Mesa Mpulse 600 and immediately "felt" a difference live. Just like when I had a GB Shuttle 6.0 and "felt" a difference when I bought a GBE 750. I can't quantify why they felt different, but I know that both big boys performed better live for me and hit harder than both lightweight amps. It's probably not measurable, but it's why I dont' currently own any lightweight amps.

[agedhorse]

Originally Posted by joelb79

http://www.hificritic.com/downloads/Class-D.pdf

For people following this thread; I've done some more reading. I am convinced that the changes made to the signal coming through a Class-D circuit can be quantified, but most likely not measured using the standard ways that we measure amplifier output. But most certainly Class-D changes the signal; for better or for worse.

In my professional opinion, as a long time designer of linear analog amps as well as class D technology, that article is nothing more than fear mongering of the highest order. Most of the comments MIGHT be valid for a poorly designed amp of any class, but things like RF radiation and conduction are tightly controlled by regulatory agencies and are thoroughly tested to meet very low limits, in some ways the RF noise can be less than a linear amp with a line frequency transformer that uses undamped rectifier junctions that might spew and ring. They also have demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of what common mode means, as well as single supply BTL topologies.

I worked as a junior engineer for an audiophile amp company just out of college. 3 months of hearing deceiptful bulls**t from the senior engineer, the owner of the company, the investors (ESPECIALLY the investors who were being taken for their own ride... happy as clams on the way to a clambake, the patently false claims and made up specs., the untruths and testing that never happened all contribute to the lack of respect the audiophile industry as a whole has earned. I had this irrestistable urge to wash my hands because I always felt "dirty" around folks like this.

Always understand where the information is coming from, why it may be presented in the way that it is, and how it may serve motives that may not be immediately recognized and you will better understand what information is contained between the lines.

[agedhorse]

Originally Posted by willsellout

I understand this. I had a Streamliner 900 and switched to a Mesa Mpulse 600 and immediately "felt" a difference live. Just like when I had a GB Shuttle 6.0 and "felt" a difference when I bought a GBE 750. I can't quantify why they felt different, but I know that both big boys performed better live for me and hit harder than both lightweight amps. It's probably not measurable, but it's why I dont' currently own any lightweight amps.

Ummmm, the preamps are different?

The GBE-750 uses a totally different preamp than the Shuttle uses, just the summing section can be responsible for significant sound and feel. Playing say the GBE-750 with the ShuttleMax 9.2, which are more similar (but still not identical) would be a closer match based on my lab testing.

A better way to test would be to use the same preamp with the different power amp sections (easily done with the pre send, pwr return insert point at the fx loop) and under those conditions, in a level matched lab environment, I was not able to tell the difference between the 9.2 and the GBE power amps.

[agedhorse]

If you only knew where that wire (or unicorn hair) was pulled out of... it's a place the sun don't shine

Originally Posted by Chef

Dude:
Those cables aren't made from ''wire.''
They're made from Unicorn fur, shed in the Spring, gathered up by young Nubians, and knitted into cable.

It's a special process, and quite expensive.

[agedhorse]

Originally Posted by joelb79

Those power amps you mention also cost thousands a piece and have much greater power than we can have at our price point. I'm not buying that we have the same amplifier technology in our micro amplifiers at all. I think that is a very mute point.

In fact, this is not necessarily the case. There are class D pro audio amps at similar power levels that the class D bass amps provide, they are in fact cost competitive and based on much the same or identical technology. In fact, the IcePower platform is used in some well respected pro audio products, and can perform even better with regard to some specifications because of specific design enhancements that are not necessary in the pro audio marketplace.

[joelb79]

Originally Posted by agedhorse

In my professional opinion, as a long time designer of linear analog amps as well as class D technology, that article is nothing more than fear mongering of the highest order. Most of the comments MIGHT be valid for a poorly designed amp of any class, but things like RF radiation and conduction are tightly controlled by regulatory agencies and are thoroughly tested to meet very low limits, in some ways the RF noise can be less than a linear amp with a line frequency transformer that uses undamped rectifier junctions that might spew and ring. They also have demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of what common mode means, as well as single supply BTL topologies.

I worked as a junior engineer for an audiophile amp company just out of college. 3 months of hearing deceiptful bulls**t from the senior engineer, the owner of the company, the investors (ESPECIALLY the investors who were being taken for their own ride... happy as clams on the way to a clambake, the patently false claims and made up specs., the untruths and testing that never happened all contribute to the lack of respect the audiophile industry as a whole has earned. I had this irrestistable urge to wash my hands because I always felt "dirty" around folks like this.

Always understand where the information is coming from, why it may be presented in the way that it is, and how it may serve motives that may not be immediately recognized and you will better understand what information is contained between the lines.

I didn't read it as fear mongering. It seemed like a more drawn out text of the same thing this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class-D_amplifier

Even wikipedia states stuff about RF, and design limitations and complications. Is mentioning that stuff considered fear mongering then?

[joelb79]

Originally Posted by agedhorse

In fact, this is not necessarily the case. There are class D pro audio amps at similar power levels that the class D bass amps provide, they are in fact cost competitive and based on much the same or identical technology. In fact, the IcePower platform is used in some well respected pro audio products, and can perform even better with regard to some specifications because of specific design enhancements that are not necessary in the pro audio marketplace.

See but pro-touring amplifiers to me are Lab Gruppen, Crown I-tech, ect.. Nobody bothers to call their amplifiers Class D when you are up there. You invent your own class. I just don't buy that they are all popping ice-power units into chassis and calling them "Pro-Touring" amplifiers. I'm staring at gut pictures of an I-Tech right now, and nothing in there looks ice-power at all. They all cost a pretty penny too, like I said thousands.

[Chef]

That can't be right.
They told me there was rainbows there?!?!?!?!

Originally Posted by agedhorse

If you only knew where that wire (or unicorn hair) was pulled out of... it's a place the sun don't shine

[Chef]

I bet not everyone has the same point of view.

Originally Posted by joelb79

See but pro-touring amplifiers to me are

[fdeck]

Originally Posted by joelb79

I didn't read it as fear mongering. It seemed like a more drawn out text of the same thing this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class-D_amplifier

Even wikipedia states stuff about RF, and design limitations and complications. Is mentioning that stuff considered fear mongering then?

I read it as painting a completely qualitative picture, and drawing conclusions from it, without defining any terms or demonstrating a quantitative basis for those conclusions. This is a schoolboy mistake. It would be like saying that water contains deuterium oxide, and deuterium oxide is toxic, therefore water is toxic.

The audiophile community has a habit of generating verbiage consisting of stringing technical terms together in ways that make no technical sense. This text can seem impressive, if not convincing, to the layperson, while seeming like utter drivel to an expert or serious enthusiast.

The following is drivel:

Below average treble
Average bass quality
High damping factor is misleading
Lightweight mid range timbre
False sense of ‘presence’
Poor rhythm, weakened sense of drive, of propulsive momentum
Cross modulation between music strands
Lack of stable focus and inconsistent image transparency
Listener fatigue

[fdeck]

Meanwhile, here's what I expect from a power amplifier of any class in a bass amp:

1. The output is just like the input, only bigger.

2. Departures from this ideal at normal signal levels are inaudible.

3. If I push the amp to overload, it will take care of me in a musically forgiving way.

Everything else, I can take care of by tailoring other parts of the signal chain, most likely by using the built-in preamp and being happy. If there are enough other people like me, it would explain why the typical "micro" head lasts about 1/2 hour in the TB Classifieds before getting snapped up.

[seamonkey]

Originally Posted by joelb79

I didn't read it as fear mongering. It seemed like a more drawn out text of the same thing this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class-D_amplifier

Even wikipedia states stuff about RF, and design limitations and complications. Is mentioning that stuff considered fear mongering then?

Wikipedia is always right

Many of those design considerations listed are just general design considerations for any audio equipment.