Mini 0r Micro Amps.... I Must Be Missing Something?

[JimmyM]

Why do micro lovers get so testy during these types of discussions? If you want to use a micro, use it. I do. But you can't fault people for having an opinion, and it's certainly not based on voicing alone, I can tell you that.

[Jeff Scott]

Big transformers are needed in linear power supplies (LPSs) because they run at 50/60Hz, not that big iron inherently provides for bigger, deeper bottom end. A SMPS runs at such high frequencies that all the components in them can be much smaller and still provide for the same big bottom end of LPSs.

[bucephylus]

All I know is that for the cover gigs I play, if I played at volumes where my Shuttle 9 started to lose oomph, I would be fired. Further, if I really need more amplification than that without FOH reinforcement, I probably don't want the gig.

And, IME, after load in/out night after night for a bunch of years; yes, I start looking for anywhere I might find more convenience without losing capability.

None of my GB heads have shown the slightest indication of malfunctioning or other reliability issues. Not once.

Each to their own, and whatever works for you.

I personally dragged around Acoustic 360's, Sunn Model T's, etc etc for decades where micros were not an option. I still dig the tone I can get from some of those; and include the SVT in that group. But, IME the micros represent an outstanding step forward as a viable club gigging option. BTW, in my case, I auditioned the DB750 against a TE Hexavalve, and preferred the tone of the Hex; but, later on found the S9 to be a better option; so, sold the Hex. For quite a while I gigged with the S9 sitting on top of a Berg NV610. Pretty funny looking setup, but it moved lots of air.

Nope, micros work just fine for me, and the comments in the OP don't line up with my experience at all. But, of course, different strokes....

[nostatic]

100+ load in/out a year, tight stages, small and efficient wins. I've owned a bunch of stuff and often have supplied back lines with popular big amps. My smaller rig crushes them for the tone that I want. The Puma 500 or 900 head fits into the laptop sleeve in my bag and will cover any size gig (festivals are going to have FOH anyway). If I want tube feel and sound, I run Monique into the effects loop. No way I'm ever going back to something big/heavy. Frankly, the only reason for it these days is looks. The best micro heads sound as good or better than anything out there (and are reliable). I wouldn't put Ampeg in that group but ymmv.

[seamonkey]

"I'm telling you Zack, the best cell phones are big an bulky. The longer the antenna the better it is! Never let anyone tell you different."


"OK Uncle Mike, And I like to put it in my front pants pocket when I look at Kelly. It hides my tent pole."

[JimmyM]

I know guys who would still use those giant cellphones if they could.

[joelb79]

Originally Posted by michricker

Agreed. My ab of the th500 vs db750 concluded there is still a considerable gap the advantage going to the big head for dynamics, tone, tightness, lack of compression in the low end. The micro heads are great and if you don't ab gig both you will be happy with the micro. Once you try the big head at a typical medium gig you will feel and notice the difference. For super low volume coffee shops or in your basement at low vol not much difference.

When you take a look at THD+N of the power amplifier used in the TH500 its easy to see why at a medium gig there was a perceivable difference between the db750 and the TH-500. At 8-Ohms Stereo, the amplifier specs good THD until the power reaches around 60 Watts Per channel (120W bridged), at which point the amplifier shoots up to 10% THD. But they don't run these amplifiers in stereo, they are bridged mono, where the THD spec goes up. I don't know about anybody else, but when you have audible distortion, (at 10% it is audible), however subtle you get a squishy feeling to your strings and the volume seems to peak out and not get louder.



If the harmonics were odd, they wouldn't be very musical either.

The spec sheet also states 10% THD @ 550w. It's got great bang for the space it uses, and produces little heat of its own, but the distortion is off the charts to me.

I have golden ears (somewhat), I can hear this stuff. Its tangible. Its real. It has an effect on your tone, and it also changes how the speaker cones move. All of these things should be somewhat perceivable to the player, as pointed out. Especially in an A/B situation at a gig. If both amplifiers were set to 300w; and given a clean signal from the same preamp I am positive the difference could be easily heard and felt. Most certainly the db750 does not carry the same high distortion specs at 300w output.

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by Shane Carter

I'm also not advocating using heavy rigs. I'm wondering out loud, what is the advantage to hauling something that weighs a few pounds less and half the size?

How about only having two hands?

A one-trip load in is way easier if your amp fits into the front pouch of a regular gig big, than when you have to use a cart, or have another bag slung over your shoulder.

[dincz]

Originally Posted by joelb79

If the harmonics were odd, they wouldn't be very musical either

A 3rd harmonic sounds musical to me. Not surprising as it's an octave above a perfect 5th.

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by dincz

A 3rd harmonic sounds musical to me. Not surprising as it's an octave above a perfect 5th.

Until you start playing chords and double stops. This could shed some light on the "roughness" that KJung and others have reported with the TH500.

Don't see how it's relevant to this discussion, though, unless all micros have that much built in grit, and all lead sleds don't.

[jphovercraft]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

I'm quite happy with the sound and reliability of my micros, but I'm starting to appreciate traditional solid state with an iron transformer more these days. I've done a handful of gigs with a traditional solid state BA110 recently, and OK, it's an inexpensive practice amp, but I can tell a difference in the response of it and my micro rigs. It comes across as a little tighter. I still dig the micro rigs a lot, but I get why some folks haven't made the switch from heavy SS to light SS.

I guess that means I disagree with Ken, but what else is new?

Quite the opposite here. I find my Peavey IPR 1600 tighter and more transparent than my just-retired Yamaha 2200 ... which doesn't owe me anything after 25+ years ...

[KJung]

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

Until you start playing chords and double stops. This could shed some light on the "roughness" that KJung and others have reported with the TH500.

Don't see how it's relevant to this discussion, though, unless all micros have that much built in grit, and all lead sleds don't.

I'm pretty sure that is coming from the preamp, since it is basically the tonehammer pedal preamp that is meant to provide some harmonic distortion. The whole point of the TH500 is to provide a bit of nice growl and grind.

Also, the distortion rate reported above regarding the TH500 is not correct. They use the x250 ICE module (same unit that is in the Genz 900 series amps), and then limit the output at 4ohms to the 8ohm spec, resulting in an uber reliable power source with very nice specs. Gockenklang does a similar thing, using a MUCH more powerful, uber high end class D/SMPS unit (1000 watt) than their specs would suggest, and then somehow limiting it to 650 watts, and keeping THD to a ridiculously low level.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Why do micro lovers get so testy during these types of discussions? If you want to use a micro, use it. I do. But you can't fault people for having an opinion, and it's certainly not based on voicing alone, I can tell you that.

It is not about micro users getting testy, it is about providing accurate information Again, I totally agree, all should use the amp they want, and all amps sound different. There is not a 'class D' tone or a class A/B tone. There is not a 'specific low end tone or perfomance' associated with the type of power supply. Again, if their were, the top of the line PA companies would be using the 'type of amp' that was the 'best'! ALL of them use class D/SMPS amps. All of them.

It would be a shame if an amp shopper eliminates a variety of amps for consideration due to the wrong reasons and mis-information. That being said, if someone plays a Thunderfunk or an Eden WT550 and likes it better than a TH500 or a Markbass Big Bang, and is not bothered by the size/weight, then of course, that would be a totally legitimate choice. All these amps sound different. There are SMPS amps that have huge but tight low ends, there are 'big iron' amps that sound a bit thin or flubby down low, etc., etc., etc. It is all about quality of components and execution.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by joelb79

When you take a look at THD+N of the power amplifier used in the TH500 its easy to see why at a medium gig there was a perceivable difference between the db750 and the TH-500. At 8-Ohms Stereo, the amplifier specs good THD until the power reaches around 60 Watts Per channel (120W bridged), at which point the amplifier shoots up to 10% THD. But they don't run these amplifiers in stereo, they are bridged mono, where the THD spec goes up. I don't know about anybody else, but when you have audible distortion, (at 10% it is audible), however subtle you get a squishy feeling to your strings and the volume seems to peak out and not get louder.



If the harmonics were odd, they wouldn't be very musical either.

The spec sheet also states 10% THD @ 550w. It's got great bang for the space it uses, and produces little heat of its own, but the distortion is off the charts to me.

I have golden ears (somewhat), I can hear this stuff. Its tangible. Its real. It has an effect on your tone, and it also changes how the speaker cones move. All of these things should be somewhat perceivable to the player, as pointed out. Especially in an A/B situation at a gig. If both amplifiers were set to 300w; and given a clean signal from the same preamp I am positive the difference could be easily heard and felt. Most certainly the db750 does not carry the same high distortion specs at 300w output.

That is not the power module used in the TH500. I'll not make a specific comment about the quality of your 'golden ears' on this one! You might want to remove that post, since that is the kind of stuff that perpetuates these type of beliefs.

Edit: +1 to your general point though. The higher end class D/SMPS bass amps, like the Glock, the Puma, etc., seem to use the 'monoblock' high powered modules from various companies, versus the 'bridging modules' at the lower end of the market (i.e. you can see the brand and model number of the Glock through the heat fins... that module is a monster!). I assume this at least somewhat impacts the overal performance of the unit in big, open, low end. Again, this has less to do with the topology of the power section versus the quality of component and the price point, like with any amp of any design.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by michricker

Maybe it's the big transformers contributing to the note feel and heft? Watts in amp ratings I have not seen correlation.

IMO, no. It is a very nicely designed and executed amp though, with very good performance. There are MANY 'big iron' amps with similar power ratings that don't have the feel down low of the Aguilar. I would say the same thing about the Glockenklang Blue Soul and the Puma900 in the SMPS world (along with the high end Crown SMPS power amps, as another example). Top notch quality and design (coming with a top notch price!) will result in some pretty amazing performance, regardless of the specific way it is achieved.

Try the 'big iron' SWR750 and then let me know if every high wattage big iron amp has a 'tight, controlled but massive low end

Again, just trying to communicate that there are amazing amps out there of EVERY design. Yes, comparing a $2,500 amp to a $500 (of any design) is probably not a fair fight, regardless of topology. My almost $2,000 Glock outperfoms my $600 F500 also, even though the topology is the same, and the wattage is not that different

[KJung]

Originally Posted by jphovercraft

Quite the opposite here. I find my Peavey IPR 1600 tighter and more transparent than my just-retired Yamaha 2200 ... which doesn't owe me anything after 25+ years ...

Basing this discussion on PA power amps is a better way to really get a feel for what is going on, since they are ALL designed to be as neutral and clean as possible, and they are, well, power amps, not entire complex systems like an all in one bass amp. The market has definitely spoken on that. Yes, there are still guys who swear their CA9's sound more massive than other similarly spec'd SMPS power amps, primarily due to not equating differences in input gain, etc. (IMO and IME).

This is a much more difficult discussion to have about bass amps. The 'marketing spec's' of bass amps are not nearly as accurate or consistent as in the PA world, and there is SO much going on with different preamp voicings, hi passing/low end voicing circuitry, power management designs (some of which are actually DESIGNED to increase distortion levels in a musical way), etc. that it is hard to isolate differences in performance based on one simple, easy to recognize component, like power supply design.

Combine this (even moreso than with PA style power amps) with the facts that the gain structures and master volume pot taper design across bass amps are massively different (resulting in many comparing amps at the same 'knob settings' and saying 'this one is a lot louder), and you get this re-occuring mess of opinions based on limited and/or faulty info (like trying to guess which power module is being used in an amps, etc.)

[Shane Carter]

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

Sorry, but I'm going to cry foul on the "big is good" camp.

The OP tries to replace a large, expensive rack rig with an entry-level $400 Ampeg micro. He finds that it doesn't compare to his big rig, and he draws the inference that therefore, all micros suck.

My comparison was a PF-500 to a Crown XLS 1500, both can be found for $399 or less, not including a preamp needed with the power amp. I'm sorry, but I did not say all micros suck, as a matter of fact, I placed an order for one. The one particular model had several references to problems people were having, so I cancelled my order. If you read through the various postings on the smaller amps, many people have issues with them. Others love them, varied opinions just like you have on TB over any other item on here. I never said that I needed to run 4 810cabinets, or have a volume war, or that only heavy stuff is better, or that everyone should do what I do.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Shane Carter

My comparison was a PF-500 to a Crown XLS 1500, both can be found for $399 or less, not including a preamp needed with the power amp. I'm sorry, but I did not say all micros suck, as a matter of fact, I placed an order for one. The one particular model had several references to problems people were having, so I cancelled my order. If you read through the various postings on the smaller amps, many people have issues with them. Others love them, varied opinions just like you have on TB over any other item on here. I never said that I needed to run 4 810cabinets, or have a volume war, or that only heavy stuff is better, or that everyone should do what I do.

+1 Your post was stated very diplomatically. Hopefully, you now realize that the problem posts again are mostly 'brand' related, not topology related. That is the only point about which I would disagree with you. Just as many 'problem posts' from those same brands with their 'non SMPS' amps.

That being said, you now understand the reasons that some value small footprint and lightweight, and also that there is a HUGE variety of tonal and performange variation among amps using SMPS, just like there is huge variation in tone and perfomance among those amps that happen to use more traditional power supplies.

It is a VERY good time to be a bassist, at least regarding choice/power/weight of equipment.

[Dr. Cheese]

Hi Ken, when you get a chance, PM me. I want to ask you some questions about St. Louis music history.

[arai]

Thanks for the great posts Ken, I always find your post informative. There's something to be said for logic and reasoning