Mixing Speaker Cabs

[musicxfactor]

I read a thread a fews days back where someone wanted to run a 210 cab & 112 cab together. Some responded that this wasn't a good idea. I'm curious as to why. Some said to look in the FAQ section about this. I checked out some of the FAQ & couldn't find the topic. Could someone elaborate more on this. I was thinking about running the same setup in full range. My days of bi-amping are over. Thanks!

[vinxbass]

I personally wouldn't mix a 2x10 and 1x12 because I don't think theres that much of a difference in sound. Of coarse, I run a BRX10.2 and BRX10.4 Carvin neo cabs and run them at 2 ohms which sounds pretty darn good.

I'm only speaking for myself, it also depends on what ohm load you'll be running, whether or not it's a good match.

[musicxfactor]

Both cabs would be 8 ohms, so the total would be 4 ohms.

[scuz]

Bill Fitzmaurice and many others will tell you that same-sized drivers (speakers) do better together, even better when they're the same driver. For example, if you had a 2x12 cabinet and wanted another smaller one to put on it, getting a 1x12 would have better synergy with the 2x12 than, say, a 2x10.

At least I think I'm getting this right.

[UncleBalsamic]

It's not just speaker size, each cab would have to be identical for there to be any real benefit. I'll leave Bill Fitzmaurice, greenboy, Alex Claber or somebody else to properly explain it.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by scuz

Bill Fitzmaurice and many others will tell you that same-sized drivers (speakers) do better together, even better when they're the same driver. For example, if you had a 2x12 cabinet and wanted another smaller one to put on it, getting a 1x12 would have better synergy with the 2x12 than, say, a 2x10.

At least I think I'm getting this right.

Pretty much. The assumption is often made that tens, twelves and fifteens each have a characteristic tone and/or frequency response, so using one from column A and one from column B will give you a 'best of both worlds' result. That assumption is just plain wrong. There is no difference in either tone or frequency response that can be attributed to driver size in and of itself. Where the average musical instrument driver is concerned there's actually very little difference between the three sizes. But there are differences in the phase responses of different drivers and cabs, even different cabs loaded with the same driver, and when you mix and match them the results are at best unpredictable, the worst case being the cabs will detract from each other as much as they augment each other. So if you must take on item from column A and one from column B do so it a Chinese restaurant, not a music store.

That's not to say that there isn't any benefit in using different size drivers together. There's a great deal of benefit in that when the drivers are dedicated woofers/midranges/tweeters with a crossover insuring that each operates only in their own bandwidth.

If this information isn't in the FAQs it should be.

[jellymax]

its a good bet they will sound ok together, but its still a roll of the dice. i do it
occasionally with a DB210 & a SWR 1x12 combo--sounds decent...

[Brad Johnson]

I use two Bag End cabs, S15X-D and S10X-D.

Both full range.
Both coax drivers.
A 1-15 and a 1-110.
The 1-15 cab is rear ported, the 1-10 sealed.
They don't sound similar alone.
They sound great together.
They complement each other.
I've tried running two S15X-Ds and by all accounts it didn't sound as good as this.

I agree that when considering using unlike cabinets/drivers the results are unpredictable. I do find it odd that while the worst case scenario is usually mentioned, the best case isn't... other than being unpredictable. It could be unpredictably great.


I agree with the statement that people often think that simply by mixing and matching drivers postitives "will" happen. As if the enclosure doesn't matter. Mixing and matching different cabs with different drivers is something else.

IME most people understand that they won't know truly the results until they try it. That even goes for identical cabs. I do know that something positive "can" happen, I've experienced it many times.

I guess it's a glass hall full/half empty stating of the situation.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by musicxfactor

I read a thread a fews days back where someone wanted to run a 210 cab & 112 cab together. Some responded that this wasn't a good idea. I'm curious as to why. Some said to look in the FAQ section about this. I checked out some of the FAQ & couldn't find the topic. Could someone elaborate more on this. I was thinking about running the same setup in full range. My days of bi-amping are over. Thanks!

It depends on the cabs. The results can even vary depending on placement. You might find a 1-12 on top/2-10 on the bottom sounds more to your liking that a 2-10 on top/1-12 on the bottom. Or vice versa. It's best to try it and see if you like it. There's no reason why it can't work, with the typical caveats given (proper amplification/impedances/etc.)

I've had people tell me what my rig sounds like based on reading about it on the web. They were clueless to the actual results, which didn't fit what they imagined. Try it and you won't have to guess either.


My Bag End rig:


My Nahas rig: full range 1-15 (no hf driver) and a 1-12 with hf driver). The cabs did overlap in frequency range.


I should mention that this combination was the result of trial and error testing on a lark that again showed me what some of the possibilities were. I found this Nahas 1-12 and tried it with several cabs. There was something head and shoulders above the rest when I paired it with a Bag End S15-D. Later on, Joey Nahas made an 18" cube similar to the S15-D and it just got better.

So if you're a musician with some free time...

[JTE]

The thing is that there's a LOT of subjective things in sound. If you like the way a 2x10 stacked on a 1x12 sounds then it's a good sound. But to decide you want that rig without trying it could leave you with a lot of remorse. Try a good matched pair of cabinets stacked vertically, and then try them horizontal. Try a 1x12 on top of a 2x10, reverse it. Compare the 1x12/2x10 stack to a pair of 1x12 and a pair of 2x10 stacks. Make the decision based on what SOUNDS good to you. Don't make based on what looks cool in the catalog, what you think you're hearing when you hear a big concert, or what the diagrams and figures on paper show.

Me, I really liked when I stacked my Eden 2x12 on top of my 4x10. Yeah, the 2x12 had a diagonal arrangement and none of the speaker lined up. But it sounded great. Could it have sounded better? Probably.

LISTEN to what it sounds like when YOU are playing through it. That's the test, and the only data that really means anything in the end.

John

[Gintaras]

I have 4 cabs and have mixed them and have had fairly good results. I must agree that is is a hit and miss or trial and error type of experiment.

I lucked into a really nice combination with a DR Bass 112LF on the bottom and a Yamaha BBT110s on top. They are both 4 ohms and ran them with a GenzBenz Neopak. The 112LF has no tweeter and tuned to go down to 35hz.
Also had a fairly nice match with a Schroeder 1010L sitting on top of the DR Bass. I stack the 1010L vertically.

[RickenBoogie]

Two identical cabs paired together is a sure bet. If you like how one by itself sounds, you'll love a pair of them. But, like many here, I've run a mixed bag over the years. Sometimes, as mentioned already, the combination can sound awesome. I've run 2 full range rigs consisting of 2 10's and an 18. Both sounded killer. Maybe I was lucky. If you don't want to take a chance, stick with 2 identical cabs. It never fails. Otherwise, who know's. Maybe it's good, maybe it's not.

[HolmeBass]

I play exactly this rig for most of my gigs- a 2x10 on the bottom, 1x12 on the top, both 8 Ohms and both boxes have the same sensitivity. It sounds pretty great if I do say so myself (all issues are operator error), the extra mid emphasis from the 1x12 helping increase the punchiness of my tone, the 2x10 providing more bass extension (it is all about the cabinet-driver combination, automatically assuming a larger driver provides more bass response is naive). While some combinations of cabinets may not sound good together, I would think it would be due to frequency response rather than phase issues. If the drivers are firing properly in all cabs (test with a 9-volt battery) then where does the "phase problem" enter in? This even covers the difference between front and rear-ported cabinets- if the porting imparts phase problems then the cabinet was not properly designed to begin with, and it's not the combination of cabinets that's causing the trouble.

[will33]

Technically you shouldn't have different drivers operating in the same bandwidth for the reasons mentioned here. You should also go with what sounds best to you since you're the one playing it, also for the reasons mentioned here.

I have a little 112+210 stack (homebrew stuff) that sounds surprisingly good and fills the room out front of the stack. In this case one really does make up for the other. Typical 210 lacks lows but adds clarity, 112 the opposite. Haven't had much audible problems with phasing, I attribute that to luck.

A different stack of 210's and a 12 may be riddled with problems, who knows.

The ideal thing would be to find a cab you like, that isn't "lacking" anything so there's nothing to make up for. Then add an identical cab to sound the same, just louder. If your budget is limited and you're sort of forced to work with the hodge-podge of stuff you have or can afford, sometimes you can't be that choosy.

Point is, keep it matched if you can, mix-n-match until you sound the best you can if you can't keep it matched and in either case, make your judgements playing a gig at volume mixed in with the whole band and listen from as far out from the rig as you can. What it sounds like at a store or standing 3 feet in front of it is certainly not what your audience is hearing.


For reference my 210 is a pair of older eden speakers in a box that's bigger than they were designed for (mid-hump is gone but no lows now), the 112 is a carvin ps12b, strong in the lows but loses it higher up.

[OtterOnBass]

Mixing cabs isn't a sounds good/sounds bad situation. It's a situation where your sound will be different around the room. As two different sources put out the same signal, and don't 'couple' to reinforce each other 100%, they create comb filtering and add/subtract in different frequencies depending on the location of the listener. It may sound balanced in front of the cabs, but two feet to the left and it's a different sound, two feet to the right and it's another.

On the other hand, that's the way we've always done it, and that's good enough for everybody else.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by OtterOnBass

Mixing cabs isn't a sounds good/sounds bad situation. It's a situation where your sound will be different around the room. As two different sources put out the same signal, and don't 'couple' to reinforce each other 100%, they create comb filtering and add/subtract in different frequencies depending on the location of the listener. It may sound balanced in front of the cabs, but two feet to the left and it's a different sound, two feet to the right and it's another.

On the other hand, that's the way we've always done it, and that's good enough for everybody else.

Your sound will be different? So far- I'm not experiencing that... according to the people I work with. Maybe "might" is a better choice.

[John Bigboote]

Life is simpler with matching cabs. I'm currently running a 115LF and a 210, stacked vertically. The only way this rig works to my satisfaction is biamping it. If you have two identical cabs, you can take what you need (one or both) to a gig, and you can run them off a single amp (provided you don't exceed the amp's min ohms) with straightforward eq and no funny stuff. Although both my cabs are relatively small and lightweight, I'm hauling 30+ pounds of rack to make it all work. There are days when I wish for a compact head and a matching pair of... whatever. But then I tweak my tone just by varying the volumes on the two channels of my power amp, and I get this big grin...

-jb

[XXL]

For my simple needs my Avatar 2x10 and 1x12 have been very useful and sound fine at gigging levels.

This is coming from a guy that only had an 8x10 and dragged it around to every single place that we played.. Now I have a portable rig that fits in my little econo car and sounds great to me and my bandmates.. no problems at all mixing these speaker cabs for me and my uses.

[Brad Johnson]

As a former bi-amper, I can't see going that route again. It's even simpler to find cabs that work together without the need for separate gain controls. Most cab combinations I've tried didn't have one cab drowning out the other.

I carry around a 6 lb. amp.

[UncleBalsamic]

Originally Posted by will33

Typical 210 lacks lows but adds clarity, 112 the opposite. Haven't had much audible problems with phasing, I attribute that to luck.

Remember that driver size does not affect tone. This is what leads people to often mix cabs - believing that bigger drivers produce low frequencies better. This isn't true.