modelers?

[guidedbyechoes]

What are the pro and cons of using modelers? I'm aware that they poorly emulate the amp they should but are th tones usable?

[tabdog]

I see them as pre-set EQ settings
that can be easily accessed.

I like them on a preamp better than
I do on am amp,

Tabdog

[pie_man_25]

using an amp modeler can be very effective if used right - just check out the Behringer Bass V-amp megathread for one good example. I'm not going to say that amp emulation/modelling will be 100% true to the original tone, but I'm sure if you used a good 810 with a good transparent power amp with a modelling pre-amp set to an ampeg-ish "vintage" tube amp model, you'll get pretty darn close to the "real deal". Likewise for some other famous amp set-ups. Perhaps for versatility a good transparent cabinet would be best. Of course, this is all IMO - I don't use any modelling live, and I know some people that use it poorly, but I don't see why one couldn't get a good tone using modelling technology.

[JGR]

Kind of a general statement. All modelers are not created equal. I have a Fractal Audio Axe FX II and it is freakin stellar. Only one bass amp (SVT) at the moment, but it's badass. With the units immense power, I think it exceeds the real thing in many regards. It comes with a price premium, but all the stuff by Line 6, H&K, Digi 11 Rack, etc. are toys in comparison.

[guidedbyechoes]

Originally Posted by JGR

Kind of a general statement. All modelers are not created equal. I have a Fractal Audio Axe FX II and it is freakin stellar. Only one bass amp (SVT) at the moment, but it's badass. With the units immense power, I think it exceeds the real thing in many regards.

Ah the new axe has a bass sim? I'm a fan of the first series as I'm currently a guitar player. I know for guitars most modelers don't sound that amazing. I'm liking the tech 21 stuff, haven't had a chance to try a bass pod yet.

I was wondering as more regards of tonal spectrum. I had the xt for guitar and if you did as well you knew about the fizz and mud you have to dial out at the bottom to keep it from sounding boomy and keeping the tone clear. I was wondering if it was similar.

[JimmyM]

Modeling has improved by leaps and bounds over the last few years to where the best of it is quite usable, and even the not-so-best is usable to a certain extent. But I've yet to play through anything that's making me want to sell off my B-15. It just isn't at that level yet. It's good, and I use it quite often, but a discerning ear can still tell the difference when you're right there with it. I think of modeling as being able to make your bass sound like recordings of mic'ed tube amps, but as always with recordings, there's always a little something lost in the translation compared to hearing it live.

[oldcatfish]

I agree with JimmyM. There is a difference, if you have a good ear. But the real advantage of a modeling device is the wide variety of available tones, not the accuracy of the models.. With enough tweaking, you'll find at least a few that you like. I use a Zoom B2, primarily for the simulations. I use it to go direct to the board, and to make provided backline amps sound better. It took me awhile to figure out how to really make it work--but once I figured out the blend function, EQ, and which amp models that I like...I can make any amp have an acceptable tone. For me, the benefits of modeling far outway any drawbacks. Over the years, I've gone almost exclusively for modeling devices for both guitar and bass---most people (even musicians) can't tell the difference in a full band setting anyway. I get compliments on my tone quite frequently, both from other musicians, and from sound engineers. I should note though, that I play almost exclusively at church (actually several churches), and modelers really are ideal for that setting.

[James Judson]

Modeling preamps were designed initially to make you sound like something your not (brand of bass, brand of amp, brand of speaker etc.). They work best when the designing engineer knows what you are using and what you would like to be using. Tall order to fill here. Can you really make a Gibson sound like a Fender???? Or a 115 cab sound like and 810????

I like modelers for the fact you can push one button and all the parameters get set reducing the knob twiddling and time it takes to "dial" your sound. I use a modelers for recording. I never use a modeler live. They are not created equal and best used if you dial your sound and save the parameter settings.

Versatile??? They sure can be.

YMMV

[audiomitch]

Digital modelers can sound "distant", if that makes any sense. I haven't found one I like playing live. I use a Tech21 VT bass pedal, but it's not digital and not a modeler.

I use modeling software in Pro Tools all the time. Mostly because I'm lazy. It works pretty well if you have the time to tweak it. But I found re-amping through real amps get the best sound.

[fokof]

Here's an example:

JB/B15 vs VB99


IMHO The only reason you can actualy tell the difference between a good emulator and , let's say , a SVT/810 would be because you actually play in one.

If you put the amp in another room , Mike it , and listen through a good reference ( this is how it's gonna sound anyways on record or through a PA) in another room and have someone switch between both , I bet you won't be able to tell.

In a "live" situation , it's perfect (The VB99 anyways). People will judge with their eyes , not their ears.

[will33]

Originally Posted by audiomitch

Digital modelers can sound "distant", if that makes any sense. I haven't found one I like playing live. I use a Tech21 VT bass pedal, but it's not digital and not a modeler.

I use modeling software in Pro Tools all the time. Mostly because I'm lazy. It works pretty well if you have the time to tweak it. But I found re-amping through real amps get the best sound.

I'd tend to agree with this. I haven't found anything for live use (and to be honest quit looking some time ago) that I consider worth a damn. To me they all sound artificial, nothing like what they're supposed to sound like, and always liked it better just plugging straight in to a real bass amp.

For writing and recording though, they're extremely handy, can pull many different good sounds and to tell you the truth, in recorded music, I'd have a hard time telling the difference between some models and the real thing sometimes. Live though, there's no comparison. Don't know why that is but it is. I think for live use, they might be best employed as THE tone generator, then amplified through a PA quality poweramp and a relatively even response, uncolored cab, something like a PA cab with good lows, or a biamped sub/high setup. Something that doesn't put any, or very little, additional color on the sound beyond what the model is giving. I still don't think they sound like the real thing but could sound "good". They don't have the feel of a real bass rig but can sound like one.

[fokof]

Originally Posted by will33

They don't have the feel of a real bass rig but can sound like one.

Sound is all I am for.



(Talking about the VB99)

[guidedbyechoes]

What about using it strictly as a preamp through an actual power amp and 4x10. The cab is where I find that the models fall through. They can't seem to emulate the movements of the speakers which is at least 20% of the tone.

[Joe Louvar]

Originally Posted by guidedbyechoes

What are the pro and cons of using modelers? I'm aware that they poorly emulate the amp they should but are th tones usable?

Shouldn’t this question be on the “Effects” forum rather than here?

[D.A.R.K.]

Tech is great but it's no replacement for the real thing.
That said, i've gotten some really useful sounds out of some of these type of units, but never for their original intention.
A great example is the original sans amp. Always worked ok on bass, but is incredible in the studio for things like kick drum and vocals.

[seamonkey]

Software modelers and easy to try
Amplitube 3 is free, amp models in the Custom Shop are free to demo
There's versions that run on iPod/iPad
There are many others
guitarampmodeling.com forum has many listed and discussed.

Look for live performances of Steffan Lassard of the Dave Mathews Band
Many other live performances on you tube with all brands of software modelers.
For recordings - it's all over the place. Nobody ever credits gear they use on recordings but modeling is pervasive.

Look at any arena size FOH setup and you'll see PC's sitting next to the desk. They're running plugins there and it's what you hear out front.

"feel" is some made up term that those who don't understand modeling try to use to explain what they falsely think is different. Modeling captures all the dynamics and subtleties of the original. Anybody who listens with ears will know. Modellers also take it to new dimensions.

Not all software modelers are the same, but they are cheap to try the free demos.

Modelers are pre-amps and pre-amps are discussed in the Amps forum.

[Joe Louvar]

Which amp modeler processor is best for live polka music and more importantly my Boss GT-6B effects processor has a preamp, amp modeler and etc built into it - but it’s still an effects processor and should be discussed on the Effects forum and not here on the Amp forum.

And no matter what anyone tells me - snake doesn’t really taste like chicken either.

Originally Posted by guidedbyechoes

What are the pro and cons of using modelers? I'm aware that they poorly emulate the amp they should but are th tones usable?

About the same as using any other effects.

[Eight_Stringer]

Originally Posted by fokof

Here's an example:

JB/B15 vs VB99


IMHO The only reason you can actualy tell the difference between a good emulator and , let's say , a SVT/810 would be because you actually play in one.

If you put the amp in another room , Mike it , and listen through a good reference ( this is how it's gonna sound anyways on record or through a PA) in another room and have someone switch between both , I bet you won't be able to tell.

In a "live" situation , it's perfect (The VB99 anyways). People will judge with their eyes , not their ears.

Agree, then i would as play a VB-99. Was a bit wary of the "modelers" notion. Have the real deals for the most part. VB-99 reproduces about 80% of original sound to my ear ( and the all important general knowledge friends/punters ). Therein lay the rub, we play for paying punters, not the almost invisible minority of other muso's, gave up trying to please them in 1976. As one poster mentioned, can use the better processors like a "pre set tone control" which is the concept i desired for quick dynamic tone/effects playing live.

If your playing a Pbass all night you sound like a Pbass all night, albeit with some hand position finger techniques to get the dynamics to appear changed. Rather the VB-99 have a 4001, Jbass Pbass, MM, Hofner, with or without effects. Callable from processor or foot control, this is really the way for me. Leave the better muos's with their mono sound or inter song rapid knob twiddle fiasco, the punters could care less, provided its what they like to hear. Then whom here are really open to change, we are bass players! Regards

[guidedbyechoes]

Originally Posted by Joe Louvar

Which amp modeler processor is best for live polka music and more importantly my Boss GT-6B effects processor has a preamp, amp modeler and etc built into it - but it’s still an effects processor and should be discussed on the Effects forum and not here on the Amp forum.

And no matter what anyone tells me - snake doesn’t really taste like chicken either.



About the same as using any other effects.

I will respectfully disagree with you.

[guidedbyechoes]

Tech 21 VT Bass 1969 and Ampeg SVT - YouTube

here is a comparison where I like the amp modeler more than the real thing.