more watt does not mean more output?

[AlonGold]

Hi all,

this may be a basic question. I always thought that an amp with number of watts higher than another amp should basically be louder. but I'm now confused.

I have a marshall combo amp, 65W. I recently bought an Eden amp (head) which is 250W (when driving an 8ohm cabinet). I tried using 2 different cabinets with it (in 2 different occasions), one was an EBS, the other is a GENZ BENZ, each around 200 - 250W, 8ohm.

I expected the Eden to be (able to sound) around 4 times louder. but in fact, the marshall is a bit louder, if I make both of them go almost all the way (with a similar gain level).

anybody cares to explain?

thanks!

[KJung]

It takes about 10 times the wattage to double the volume (that's why volume is a log scale and power is a linear scale).

However, it is more complicated than that.

You have to take into consideration the following:

1) What is the amp wattage versus the wattage a cabinet can handle. Going from 100 watts to 500 watts in a big, heavy duty 410 cab can make a huge difference (still not '5 times the volume', but 4 or 5 db, which is huge, and a fuller, less compressed low end). That same wattage increase with a little 110 cab... you won't even notice it.

2) Absolute wattage... similar to the above, but looking at it from the other direction... going from a massive 800 watts, which can drive about any speaker cabinet known to man to full volume, to 1200 watts.... probably no impact at all.

3) Marketing watts versus 'real' watts. Companies use different criteria, different distortion rates, and play other games with wattage ratings... so while you think you are always comparing apples to apples between amps, sometimes you are not.

4) Cab SPL.... 100 watts into a high SPL cab (i.e., midrange voiced with a bump in the upper mids, for exampe) can sound MUCH louder than 500 watts into a deeply voiced lower SPL cab with polite mids.

So.... the answer to the question is 'it depends'. If you have a cab that can handle the additional wattage (like going from 8 ohm to 4ohm output of a ss amp), and you are starting at a wattage level below the threshold you need for a non-compressed, good tone when pushing the amp, then doubling up the wattage can give you not only 2 or 3db more volume (it's a log scale, so that is actually meaningful), but also a better tone... fuller low end, less compression. On the other hand, a small cab, or a cab with cheap speakers that can't handle additional wattage, or starting out with high wattage to begin with, and it won't really help.

[Grizzly700]

It pretty much depends on the size of speakers you were using. From what I've heard 150 watts can be a negligible difference depending on the cab.

[M*A*S*H]

so if you have bigger speakers you have more volume?

[johnk_10]

basically, if you have more speakers, you get more volume.

[RickenBoogie]

Not bigger speakers, but better speakers. Speakers with higher sensitivity. Or, just "more" speakers.

[KramerBassFan]

More good speakers, that is...

You can line up open backed 12 inch guitar cabinets all day and not get too much more low bass.

EDIT, Rickenboogie beat me to it...

[bongomania]

Wattage is just one small piece of the "loudness" puzzle. Other pieces include:
-Your dynamic range
-Your EQ settings and tone
-Number of speakers
-Size of speakers, and the box they're in
-Efficiency of the speakers
-Amount and type of distortion (intentional or not, obvious or not)
-The amp's design or circuit type

These things are true of all amps, regardless of their wattage rating. There are plenty of instances where a 50 W amp can be "louder" than a 1,000 W amp.

[s_mcsleazy]

Originally Posted by bongomania

Wattage is just one small piece of the "loudness" puzzle. Other pieces include:
-Your dynamic range
-Your EQ settings and tone
-Number of speakers
-Size of speakers, and the box they're in
-Efficiency of the speakers
-Amount and type of distortion (intentional or not, obvious or not)
-The amp's design or circuit type

These things are true of all amps, regardless of their wattage rating. There are plenty of instances where a 50 W amp can be "louder" than a 1,000 W amp.

my bassman being one of them

was in the studio last month and was playing through a 450 watt ampeg and wasnt getting a note in edgeways. plugged my bassman 50 in and the drummer was shouting at me to turn it down when it was only at 5

[AlonGold]

wow, this is really news to me, I had no clue about all these factors. thanks everybody for your replies, that is super helpful!!

leaves me wondering why the wattage value is so important when marketing an amp for sale, when in fact a 50W could sometimes be louder than a 1000W amp. i suppose it's important to know the wattage if you want to pair the amp with a cab, but usually, the wattage value is marketed as "loudness" - e.g 100W good for small venue, 300W for medium, 800W for large stages, etc etc.

[NateS]

Originally Posted by AlonGold

wow, this is really news to me, I had no clue about all these factors. thanks everybody for your replies, that is super helpful!!

leaves me wondering why the wattage value is so important when marketing an amp for sale, when in fact a 50W could sometimes be louder than a 1000W amp. i suppose it's important to know the wattage if you want to pair the amp with a cab, but usually, the wattage value is marketed as "loudness" - e.g 100W good for small venue, 300W for medium, 800W for large stages, etc etc.

the wattage value is so important because high numbers sell. sure, his 50w bassman outperformed his 450w ampeg, but a 50w rating isn't "AWESOME!", a 450w rating is.

[JimmyM]

exactly. marketing 101...big = better.

[thudfromafar]

More wattage is -one- factor that leads to greater output, out of many factors. It's not completely irrelevant, just a piece of the puzzle.

[NKUSigEp]

Watts are a measure of power, not volume. They are limited to the potential RMS and peak power before failure of a speaker in a clinical situation. And as may have already been mentioned, manufacturers almost never give a cab's "true" rating for a live or studio application. There are too many variables to produce an accurate number.

So basically, a 400-600 or so watt amp should be enough power to produce the desired volume for most bassists in a live-band situation. The sum wattage of all cabs should be within the general range of your amp's max rating. The more speakers you add, the higher the volume. The more efficient the speaker, the higher the volume. And the larger the cab (very generally speaking), the higher the volume.

Clear as mud right?

[seamonkey]

Originally Posted by AlonGold

Hi all,

this may be a basic question. I always thought that an amp with number of watts higher than another amp should basically be louder. but I'm now confused.

I have a marshall combo amp, 65W. I recently bought an Eden amp (head) which is 250W (when driving an 8ohm cabinet). I tried using 2 different cabinets with it (in 2 different occasions), one was an EBS, the other is a GENZ BENZ, each around 200 - 250W, 8ohm.

I expected the Eden to be (able to sound) around 4 times louder. but in fact, the marshall is a bit louder, if I make both of them go almost all the way (with a similar gain level).

anybody cares to explain?

thanks!

Loudest at what frequencies?
Ears are more sensitive to mid-range frequencies, and good harmonic rich signals like fresh strings can allow the ear to hear a missing fundamental as if it was really there. In other words the Marshal may not be as loud in the bass, but real bass fundamental isn't what all players want for loudness.

[meatwad]

I find a certain particular tube amp's measly 300w through eight 10s to be devastatingly loud. Without kicking a dead horse here, it's 450w hybrid counterpart is absolutely not 150 watts louder. Even though it seems, going by the numbers, the 450w amp should be even just a tad louder, when in reality it nearly got as loud without achieving the same depth of low end, for whatever reason.

I am in no way trying to bring tube vs ss into this discussion, because I can think of a full on SS head rated at 240w that could easily compare with said hybrid, along with other popular SS's rated up to twice as high.

I've used a 100w guitar head that was loud as hell through an 8x10. I've learned, as others here have already said, wattage ratings definitely don't mean everything.

[Calaverasgrande]

I dont know what kind of bassman you got but...loud is not a word I ever would use to describe a bassman. Gorgeous, fat, clean, round and thick come to mind, but not loud!

[jelwood]

I have a 2000rb and a neo 412, I can hardly notice the volume difference when I run 350 watts through the cab or 1000. Speakers are what really count.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by AlonGold

wow, this is really news to me, I had no clue about all these factors. thanks everybody for your replies, that is super helpful!!

leaves me wondering why the wattage value is so important when marketing an amp for sale, when in fact a 50W could sometimes be louder than a 1000W amp. i suppose it's important to know the wattage if you want to pair the amp with a cab, but usually, the wattage value is marketed as "loudness" - e.g 100W good for small venue, 300W for medium, 800W for large stages, etc etc.

Remember, the only way 50 watts will be louder than 1000 is if the 50 watts are low end attenuated and distorted like heck. A guitar with 50 watts can get stupid loud. A bass playing through a tube amp like a Bassman that is pushed to massive distortion can get massively loud. However, if you want a very clean, deep tone, that takes a LOT more watts to crank out the same volume.

Again, per my first post, it all works together.... cab SPL, the ability of the cab to use the power (quality of the drivers, design of the drivers, number of drivers, tuning of cab), the type of tone you want... deep and clean versus tight and grindy versus overdrive distorted, etc., etc.

The more deep bass you want, the more power needed. The cleaner the tone you want at higher volumes, the more power is needed (or at least useful).

Playing technique also comes into play... if you are a slapper generating those huge transient peaks with a very wide, clean tone, it can take LOTS of power and lots of drivers to handle those signals.

Etc., etc., etc.

Beware those who say power doesn't matter. Beware those who say higher power is 'better/louder' in all cases. IT DEPENDS!

[NKUSigEp]

Originally Posted by meatwad

...Without kicking a dead horse here, it's 450w hybrid counterpart is absolutely not 150 watts louder. Even though it seems, going by the numbers, the 450w amp should be even just a tad louder, when in reality it nearly got as loud without achieving the same depth of low end, for whatever reason.

I know what you're getting at and I certainly agree, but you're using watts as a measure of volume, which is entirely incorrect.