Muddy Low End, what to Change?

betardfoosier · #1 10-23-2011, 02:31 PM

Hey all, I'm running an RBI to a DCM2000, into two peavey 410tx cabs. My bass is a mexican j with model j pups, and a professional setup. My plucking is pretty decent, and sounds good through my little combo, but on my big rig, my low register can get muddy and undefined. I have always heard good things about all the gear I use, although I would like to lose some weight in my rack.
I have my eq pretty much at noon, except my mids pushed a bit, and I am still undefined down low. is this possibly my cabs, I have heard they have great low end. Also, would I see a big step up in sound quality going to a better head while also losing thirty pounds? I want to keep my power amp for use with pa speakers.

My third question is, how much wattage does someone really need playing medium bars with crap pa support? I have been looking at alot of heads with around 5-600 watts, but I dont know if that would really be enough. I would be competing with a quality, lighter hitting drummer and a guitarist playing a 1 x 12 theile cab, which is surprisingly loud.

RickenBoogie · #2 10-23-2011, 02:36 PM

Starting with the last question, 300 watts or better is plenty of juice, it's more to do with the spkr cabs re: volume. As to your boomy low end, first thought would be strings. Stainless steel round wounds, a fresh set. Start there and see if that doesn't make things better.

Jazz Ad · #3 10-23-2011, 02:39 PM

The RBI/BDDI is notorious for a bit of mud in the lows.
It can be charming and to me it sounds great but it's not the best unit if you like clarity. YOu can troubleshoot this with the blend turned to 0.
5-600 W is plenty in most situations and too much for most bars.
If you like the tone of a SansAmp, I'd suggest trying a Genz Benz Streamliner.

will33 · #4 10-23-2011, 02:44 PM

Sansamp rbi? Some of the sansamp stuff can get a bit muddy trying to emulate tube warmth. The boom in most cabs that can make notes sound indestinct is usually centered around120hz. Try a little cut there if you have an eq setting in that area. Can try using a little less neck pickup on the bass too.

Muddy in what setting? Rehearsal size rooms can get funny cancellation stuff going as can different size/shape barrooms you play. That's made worse by the 410 design of the cab no matter who makes it. Full frequency response in front of the cab and just the lower half of things off to the sides. Get the rig out of a corner if it's in one and/or raise it up closer to ear level. A lot of the sound is flying past you at knee level, no ears down there. Experiment with various combinations of those things.

500 watts is enough to play anywhere. That'll take most cabs to their limits. If it still isn't loud enough, add a second cab to the stack.

betardfoosier · #5 10-23-2011, 04:30 PM

Thanks for the input guys, I really appreciate it. I like a growly mid heavy tone, and I play down on the bridge with mostly bridge pup for that growly j sound. I think the rbi may be the cause for lack of clarity, as it does it when I just use the rbi into the pa at church as well. I think a new head is in order, and I'm going to use the rbi in my loop for overdrive on a few songs. Any advice for a growly but articulate head? I dont get to play on alot of gear, wichita is full of shops with nothing but budget gear.

dhomer · #6 10-23-2011, 06:27 PM

Pretty much what Will said.. "Mud" is generally a high bass-low midrange phenomenon. Could be caused by too much boost in the 100-200Hz range, and/or by speakers that are in too small of an enclosure. Both can be controlled somewhat by EQ. You also mention the sound is a bit undefined. Definition can be improved on by boosting 800Hz and slightly above, and/or using a speaker cab w/a dedicated midrange driver.. yes I recommend fEARful...

It isn't what you sound like all by yourself, its what you sound like in the total mix... Most guys tend to cut the exact same frequency range needed to be heard in the mix.. I'm not familiar w/the RBI, but I would think there is some EQ control.. Try that first.

christw · #7 10-23-2011, 06:44 PM

Have you tried with messing with your EQ, a different set of strings, and/or a different bass through the rig? I always had to kick back the bass on my old Peavey 210TX...

will33 · #8 10-23-2011, 09:55 PM

GK comes to mind for growly and articulate. Like the 700rbII with a dose of the boost knob.

dukeisdog · #9 10-24-2011, 12:09 AM

You need more speakers for more volume.

A 200 watt amp may sound really loud through an 810, but it's not going to sound like much through a 112 cab or a 210 cab. I would suggest cutting lows, and boosting low mids and mids to help cut through the mix.

Jazz Ad · #10 10-24-2011, 12:28 AM

He's got 550 W going into 8x10", that's a lot even if they are not very efficient. I don't think the issue stands there.

silky smoove · #11 10-24-2011, 01:11 AM

The blend knob on your RBI will go a long way to removing mud. When I used to run an RBI as part of a pre/power rig, I would keep the blend at about 50%. Occasionally I'd go as high as 75%, but that was rare.

Etchbass · #12 10-24-2011, 01:39 AM

your EQ settings

Joe Smithberger · #13 10-24-2011, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silky smoove

The blend knob on your RBI will go a long way to removing mud. When I used to run an RBI as part of a pre/power rig, I would keep the blend at about 50%. Occasionally I'd go as high as 75%, but that was rare.

This.

bigthor · #14 10-24-2011, 06:12 AM

Your gear sounds like its in line. If you get a clean and tasty sound from your practice amp and not your big-rig you may be facing the dreaded over-eq syndrome. I am unfamiliar with the RBI, but a lot of metal/rock guys use them to great effect. I would back way down on the gain of your preamp and crank your power amp. Just for fun play straight through the power amp and see what happens. If your favoring your J bass bridge pickup and looking for growl you might want to reverse your thinking. Start with the neck pickup on 10 and dial in bridge pickup just enough to warm it up a bit, say around 40%.

Jazzdogg · #15 10-24-2011, 10:37 AM

To the OP:

Have you gone out into the audience to hear how your rig sounds "in the mix," or are you judging the sound of your rig from your place on stage?

Are you using the same EQ on stage that you use at home, or are you EQing your rig to suit the venue?

betardfoosier · #16 10-24-2011, 10:06 PM

Thanks for the help guys, I'm sure alot has to do with the room. The rbi only has 3 band eq, so it is tough to address specific frequencies.could someone explain the rbi eq to me, does it operate like the fender stack?

rpsands · #17 10-24-2011, 10:13 PM

That preamp is nothing but a mud machine. Never been able to get a good sound out of one with a J bass but the best is to pick one pickup and stay away from the blend knob. The J typically has a monstrous mid cut in the stock 50/50 position which will make you amazingly muddy.

Stay away from the tendency to dial toward the neck pup. It sounds great solo, but mush mush with the RBI in a mix. Use the bridge pickup and pick closer to the neck if you need a little more beef. It'll sound midrangey and snarly solo but much better in the mix.

I find the RBI/Sansamp stuff really prefers P pickups, for my tastes. There is no way to dial in that 150-250 grunt that J's just don't have, with the limited Sansamp EQ.

I'd prefer to use one of the Sansamp pedals and a more flexible preamp--BBE 383, Bmax, or the Yamaha Pb-1, would be my suggestions.

Bluesy Soul · #18 10-25-2011, 10:53 AM

While our tone goals are somewhat different--I seek low, deep & warm, but also articulate and clean; never growly--there are a couple of things that are keys to keeping my sound articulate and not muddy:

1 - Mute your strings. Use a strip of felt, sponge, etc. The technique is further described in other TB threads and on Carol Kaye's website. Muting damps the strings and cuts off overtones. Overtones contribute significantly to low end mud, especially with a scooped EQ. It creates a staccato-like effect that separates your notes.

2 - Practice playing a more pizzacato style. This requires some practice, but I found it to be really worthwhile. Assuming you are a right-handed player, you can release the note a fraction earlier with your left hand, mute lightly with your right hand and pluck strings a little more with your fingertips to achieve the effect. Some players use a plectrum (pick) to separate notes more. I play with both my fingers and a pick; but after gaining this technique, I actually use a pick less often. Using open strings less frequently also helps.

I also agree that G-K amps are less muddy than most others. I love my MB200 and MB500 and am anxiously awaiting the MB800.

Good luck!

Warrior_Bass · #19 10-25-2011, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by will33

GK comes to mind for growly and articulate. Like the 700rbII with a dose of the boost knob.

+1 any of the RB amps should do fine.

bigthor · #20 10-26-2011, 07:56 AM

2 - Practice playing a more pizzacato style. This requires some practice, but I found it to be really worthwhile. Assuming you are a right-handed player, you can release the note a fraction earlier with your left hand, mute lightly with your right hand and pluck strings a little more with your fingertips to achieve the effect. Some players use a plectrum (pick) to separate notes more. I play with both my fingers and a pick; but after gaining this technique, I actually use a pick less often. Using open strings less frequently also helps.

Yea, I would agree with that line of thought. A guy showed me to play right ontop of the frets. That gives you some mute and more control of your sound. Approach this just like playing a frettless.The cat who showed me this technique was a well accomplished jazz musician and had a killed sound no matter what he played through. I tightened up my sound a lot by following this advice.