Is it my amp or the guitarist?

lburton2 · #1 05-30-2011, 10:22 PM

Here's the skinny:

I use an Eden wt550 head through an Eden 410xlt at rehearsals and most small gigs.. There's only one guitarist, a drummer and one singer.. Yet I still get drowned out. The guitarist has a nice fender Deville which cranks very loud, but I have double his wattage with more speakers.. Yet I'm still peaking trying to hear myself well.. I even try to position myself where the amp is "throwing" the sound and not onto of the rig and it hardly helps. Today I noticed that his Bass frequency on the amp is around 8 and treble around 6.5.. I'm hoping by cutting the bass frequency on his amp will let mine breathe.. I still don't understand how I'm getting overpowered, considering he's hardly pushing the amp. Any help would be awesome. Thx in advance guys.

nobodysfool · #2 05-30-2011, 10:35 PM

Guitar players are deaf....and selfish. They like to hog the sound spectrum. Keyboard players can be like that too, especially if they have a heavy left hand. Sometimes you can reason with them, and get them to turn down the bottom end of their amps, sometimes the only solution is more watts, and more speakers. Myself, I'm going to upgrade to a Markbass LM800 Tube, mostly for headroom, but also so I can't be drowned out in the mix....If they want to play loud, I can play louder....

vivifiction · #3 05-30-2011, 10:41 PM

Try reason- explain that such a bass-y tone doesn't sit well in a mix. Also, if you don't use earplugs, try it! Earplugs can cut out the higher frequency of a guitar much easier than lower bass freqs. It almost sounds counter-intuitive, but when you can't hear yourself well, earplugs make you more audible.

Epitaph04 · #4 05-30-2011, 11:05 PM

Why not just adjust your own EQ?

Gearhead17 · #5 05-30-2011, 11:16 PM

Fender Deville - Flat setting on the knobs should be

Bass at 2
Middle at 10
Treble at 2

As you increase the highs and lows on that amp, the midrange gets reduced. So the guitar player is most likely pushing too much low end and high end. If you are trying to cut through with low end, you are going to lose. You should be able to cut through him if you decrease a little below 80hz and boost the midrange (somewhere between 200hz and 800hz).

What are your settings of the WT 550? Where is the Enhance knob set? If you are cutting out anything between 200hz and 800hz, that is why you are losing the volume war. Bass players need midrange to get actual notes heard in a mix and in live settings.

You should talk to him about lowering the bass content on his amp too. If he just lowers the midrange knob to about 7 or 8 and keeps his lows and highs at 2, he should get a similar tone to what he has now - a little less extreme, but it would allow him to hear himself better on stage.

rpsands · #6 05-30-2011, 11:20 PM

Fender devilles only have three volume knob settings...1, 2, and 10. Watch out for that.

* He may seem like he's "hardly pushing the amp" but in fact be as loud as it will get. These things stop getting louder after about 3 on the master knob and just get compressed/break up. At least, this has been my experience with them.

Munjibunga · #7 05-30-2011, 11:27 PM

OK, the rule of thumb for bass power to guitar power is set at 4:1 by some but, in reality, it's more like 10:1. You might as well have the same wattage as double - you're capable of producing only 3 dB greater volume than he is (in the same frequency range). As it is, you need a lot more power to get heard over him.

One thing you can do is boost your mids a bit, in addition to doing as others suggested: have him turn down his bass frequenciy.

lburton2 · #8 05-30-2011, 11:34 PM

My Eden settings are generally flat across the board with enhance knob outfit no compression and completely counter clockwise (off).. My understanding is that this allows for no scooping or decreasing of midrange (suggestion by the Eden rep to help cut through).

Gearhead17- thx a LOT for the insight. The problem is goin to be convincing him to turn his knobs from 8 to 2.. I can see the look on his face now.. *sigh* I just don't want to lug my additional 210 just to compete for practice volume.. That seems dumb. I'm going to have to convince him. Also, +1 on the earplugs tip

magic papa · #9 05-30-2011, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gearhead17

(...)
What are your settings of the WT 550? Where is the Enhance knob set? If you are cutting out anything between 200hz and 800hz, that is why you are losing the volume war. Bass players need midrange to get actual notes heard in a mix and in live settings.
(...)

+1 to working on the EQ. You should have enough volume in the amp. Please note that when you set you bass at low volume it may sound OK while at high volumes things may be different. The same is true when you just practice by yourself or play with a band - the EQ requirements will be probably different.

Mids are crucial as stated by Gearhead.

Also - do you use any pedals? I used to have similar problem when I used pedals that shaped the signal and they sucked the mids out. Sounded great when playing quietly by myself, but all I was getting in the mix was a bit of boom and clank.

You can easily achieve that with SansAmp pedals, so you need to be careful how you set them up.

rpsands · #10 05-30-2011, 11:46 PM

Crank your semi-para at 200-300hz and that'll cut through. Basically guarantee it.

I'd start at 200 and work your way up. Add 6db.

lburton2 · #11 05-31-2011, 12:06 AM

I really don't use any effects. The absolute most I will do is an EBS milk rive for a tube like fuzz and that's almost never. I will definitely try that boost in the frequency. It's hard to find it blind at practice when eveyond just wants to get on withthe songs :P

lburton2 · #12 05-31-2011, 12:06 AM

Wow.. MULTIDRIVE.. not milk rive lol!!

Britbonic · #13 05-31-2011, 12:12 AM

In general subtraction is better than addition when it comes to EQ.

In addition to the problems with guitar player, you may also be lost in the drummer's kick drum. Try playing with your current settings with just you and the drummer and see how it sounds. In my band, I've had to change cabs and play with the bass and low mids rolled off. Now I get nice mid punch and when the drummer and I are playing together it sounds great.

magic papa · #14 05-31-2011, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpsands

Crank your semi-para at 200-300hz and that'll cut through. Basically guarantee it.

I'd start at 200 and work your way up. Add 6db.

Or if you still have volume left you'd be better off increasing it and cutting bass and treble by similar amount.

And please don't judge your tone by how it sounds on its own when you try it. Play with the band and see how it sits in a mix, maybe a completely different thing.

I used to be guilty of trying to sculpt my tone at home during a quiet practice. Sounded great then, but the mix later didn't. Started paying more attention to the mids (which I didn't like in quiet settings) and the mix came alive.

Caca de Kick · #15 05-31-2011, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

OK, the rule of thumb for bass power to guitar power is set at 4:1 by some but, in reality, it's more like 10:1. You might as well have the same wattage as double - you're capable of producing only 3 dB greater volume than he is (in the same frequency range). As it is, you need a lot more power to get heard over him.

I think the OP may be quoting the power ratings wrong. The DeVille is only 60w. The OP is using a WT550 which is 500w @ 4ohm.

T-Bird · #16 05-31-2011, 03:48 AM

Hi.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caca de Kick

I think the OP may be quoting the power ratings wrong. The DeVille is only 60w. The OP is using a WT550 which is 500w @ 4ohm.

LOL, only 60W.

That 60W is loud enough to drown pretty much any bass amp in existence if the guitarist wishes so. Unfortunately they often do.

Munji's 1:10 is closer to the reality than the often quoted 1:3, but even that does not help if the guitarist is too loud/selfish. His EQ curve has little or nothing to do with it. We are competing with totally different freq. spectrum from ours, so unless everyone contributes, nothing good will come out.

Using earplugs to fight the problem is only effective if You guys never plan to play outside the rehearsal space. If the guitarist (or any other uncosiderate band member, including bass of course) is really that loud and drowning everyone else, the ancient line:"Don't call us, we'll call You" will be the standard reply after the gig.

Regards
Sam

rust_preacher · #17 05-31-2011, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T-Bird

Hi.

LOL, only 60W.

That 60W is loud enough to drown pretty much any bass amp in existence if the guitarist wishes so. Unfortunately they often do.

I agree, the DeVille is crazy loud. And, as was stated before, once you turn it past "1" it's as well as if it had been turned to "11".

sawzalot · #18 05-31-2011, 07:29 AM

I had a loud guitarist once--my solution was a QSC MX-1500 poweramp driving two 4x10's. That's 1500 watts of power and a lot of speakers moving, and if I wanted to I could easily drown him out.

That's not the solution I'd recommend now, though--the best thing is to get everyone to occupy their own frequency space. You'll have to eq a bit like people have suggested in this thread, but there's nothing like each bandmember having the necessary restraint to make the overall band sound good.

lburton2 · #19 05-31-2011, 08:13 AM

Unfortunately, like I said, I'm starting to clip. My fear is that balance strig to string won't be overall great. Whilst boosting the kids, If I'm hanging into the low B verses comping chords etc.. I'm scared there will be a harsh imbalance.

billfitzmaurice · #20 05-31-2011, 08:22 AM

The main problem is that neither of you have ears located on the back of your knees. Therefore neither of you can hear yourself as well as the other does. Both of you should have your cabs tilted upward to better hear yourselves and not each other. And if he complains that by tilting his cab he's too loud, the answer is simple: turn down.